OnTheWayOut

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Posts by OnTheWayOut

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  42

  Warwick, What is it good for?

  by freemindfade in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  absolutely nothing.... has anyone dared ask what they need this place for?

  think about a few things.

  in bethels hay day, there was a shit ton of literature being printed, they even need a giant factory with elevators a truck could fit in.

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  OnTheWayOut

  What the heck are they doing at Patterson? Why couldn't the GB move there?
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  63

  EXACTLY Why JW's Are NOT Christian

  by Perry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a lot of people, ex-jws, believers and unbelievers alike, think that jw's are just a somewhat kooky brand of christianity.

  is it possible to "try and follow jesus" and not be christian?

  what exactly makes someone a christian?

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  OnTheWayOut

  Perry, you left out the word "true."
  Your title should be "EXACTLY Why JW's are Not True Christian"

  Then perhaps you can see how narrow-minded you are being with some "true Scotsman" examples:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

  No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").

  No True Scotsman (NTS) is a logical fallacy that occurs when (1) someone changes the definition of a word to make a claim true by default or (2) a term is defined biasedly to allow easier use of the first form. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them.
  
  
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  447

  Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

  by LaurenM in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

  even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

  the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

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  OnTheWayOut

  For some believers, there simply is no argument that will talk them out of belief. Here's the way it goes for them:

  The Dragon In My Garage

  by Carl Sagan
  

  "A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

  Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

  "Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

  "Where's the dragon?" you ask.

  "Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

  You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

  "Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

  Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

  "Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

  You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

  "Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

  Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so. The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility. Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

  Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

  Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

  Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it -- is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.
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  29

  How will many JW's react ?

  by Phizzy in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i did not believe i would see the demise of the wt in my lifetime, and maybe i will not, they may be able to ride out their present problems.. but how do you think this will affect the average, loyal, believing jw ?.

  usually most things just wash over them, if there is a slight niggle, they use their well-worn way of explaining things to themselves as in "the end is near" or "jehovah knows best" etc etc.

  but the huge sea-change in corporate policy that we see unfolding, all construction work stopped, except warwick and maybe their biggest project, chelmsford u.k. huge bethel layoffs, and the lifestyle of the remaining staff reduced to virtual slavery, more bethel closures, spiritual food reduced for the public as well as the r&f, and all of this being the opposite of what they have claimed was evidence of jehovah's blessing ???.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Against my better judgement, I attempted to put a thought in my JW wife's head about this upcoming announcement. I deliberately used words that would stick as a reason, no matter the spin that she hears. I said that my Witness friends on the internet say that there is such a huge money problem with all the pedophile lawsuits that even the money they took away from all the congregations worldwide didn't seem to be enough and that they were at least temporarily halting all Kingdom Hall construction, sending home another thousand or more Bethel workers, and reducing the production of magazines again to half of what they are now.

  All she could say was, "Where are your friends getting this information?" It was clearly an implication that this was coming from apostates. When she hears the true news, she will tend to remember what I said. I think that many many will start smelling the dead rat.

  Their only saving of themselves was that previous "Obey, even if it doesn't seem logical or sound" or whatever. Some will simply cling to that no matter what and blame Satan and the world. But many will know that Jehovah doesn't seem to be blessing their organization's efforts.
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  124

  My Mom Is Dying

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just wanted to say that my dear 89 year old mom is terminally ill and will soon pass.

  she is on morphine and hanging on.

  she has been a devout witness for about 60 years and a wonderful mother.

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  OnTheWayOut

  So sorry to read your sad news. My mother is still healthy in her young 70's and still a JW, but has not shunned me. Thanks for the advice, Min.
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  27

  Help Me Undertand...

  by DarioKehl in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to the 2014 annual report:.

  "worldwide, there are 115,416 congregations of jehovahs witnesses and 8,201,545 publishers.".

  i don't understand how the borg is facing financial difficulty.

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  OnTheWayOut

  There are many congregations even here in the United States that struggle to pay their bills and did not have a mortgage on their Kingdom Hall when the debts were dropped. You have JW's that feel they are giving their time and they don't give much of their money, which they don't have much of anyway.

  The money grab was huge, admittedly. But I wouldn't be surprised if the monthly payments plan is a bust. Say that two different people in a congregation that had a big mortgage feel some sense of relief that the debt is cancelled and stop struggling to donate their $100 a month and switch to $10 a month. That congregation now has $180 less per month to send in. Now add in a few dubs leaving the religion and a few dubs losing their jobs. This scenario is likely repeated across the country.

  Leave the United States and the story will be worse for them.
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  32

  What makes WT think they can reassign Bethel volunteers to be Regular Pioneers.

  by Zoos in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when the gb cuts loose 1600 volunteers, what makes them think they can continue telling them how they will spend their time?

  i've read on many of these threads that the 1600 will be reassigned.

  what, are they still under some sort of contract?.

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  OnTheWayOut

  They should consider a coin-operated laundry.
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  447

  Does Anyone Still Believe in God?

  by LaurenM in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  do any of you ex-jw's still believe in god?

  even with the new rebranding/softening of this religion, i still don't see how people can believe in him.

  the god of the old testimate is an angry murderer who approved rapes and slavery and killed thousands of men, women and children.

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  OnTheWayOut

  I will say that I tend to agree with the opening post. The God of the Bible is horrible. And the Bible has thoroughly been debunked by those willing to actually look at the facts. So if people want to believe in a creator that doesn't reveal himself and doesn't have minions collecting money for him, then fine. But no thanks on my part. If any god is out there, he would know why I deserve a pass on worshipping him.
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  32

  What makes WT think they can reassign Bethel volunteers to be Regular Pioneers.

  by Zoos in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when the gb cuts loose 1600 volunteers, what makes them think they can continue telling them how they will spend their time?

  i've read on many of these threads that the 1600 will be reassigned.

  what, are they still under some sort of contract?.

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  OnTheWayOut

  A Bethelite that wants to live off of Mom and Dad and make Elder Dad look good will probably take the "pioneer" title and save face with the cover story about the urgency of the preaching work. Then he will maybe do token time and hang out at Starbucks but report full service time until they get a good job.

  Whether the Bethelite does this or not, the important thing is that congregation members HEAR that this is what is happening -they are all being assigned pioneer positions. If one couple or individual is not pioneering, the locals will wonder what's wrong with them.

  WTS really does not care...as already mentioned.
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  7

  What those terrible worldly people are doing

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yesterday there was a horrific crash on a bridge here in seattle.

  a dukw (wwii amphibious truck) tourist cruise lost control and hit a charter bus full of exchange students head on.

  four dead and about a dozen seriously wounded, many more in less critical condition.yesterday, canlis restaurant, located near the scene and one of the most exclusive eateries in seattle, closed for the first time in its 65 year history and sent out its staff with food for the first responders.

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  OnTheWayOut

  .....and the Watchtower told the local JW's to get those literature carts right up near all the action and for the local pioneers to have a full thermos of coffee as they sit there watching the worldly people "do something."