OnTheWayOut

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Posts by OnTheWayOut

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  35

  When did the Great Crowd start forming?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i realize that rutherford received a flash of light regarding the identity of the gc in the year 1935, but that does not tell us when the crowd began to form.

  what would be the earliest date?

  any ideas or quotes from wt literature?

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  OnTheWayOut

  Just find the exact date that Rutherford declared that there was a great crowd and you will find that they started to form instantly in that same moment.

  From http://www.letusreason.org/JW52.htm
  At the “1935 convention in Washington, D.C.” the leaders of the Watchtower publicly proclaimed to the Jonadab class they were to inherit an earthly paradise as their eternal reward (Jehovah's Witnesses In The Divine Purpose, p. 140).
  The doctrine introduced by Judge Joseph Rutherford, second President of the Watchtower said from 1935 onward, “At the end of May of that year a five-day convention of Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses was in session... the president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society discussed the subject of 'the great multitude, 'spoken of in Revelation 7.9-17, Authorized Version. He made it clear that the 'multitude' was no spiritual or spirit begotten class, would not attain the angelic nature in heaven so as to assist the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ. It was a distinctly an earthly class with hope of endless perfect human life in the earthly paradise under Christ's kingdom” (Holy Spirit, 1976, p. 156)
  Everyone who became a Jehovah’s Witnesses before 1934 would go to Heaven (until Rutherford changed it). God stopped calling people to only a heavenly calling from that year. So he invented two classes, a heavenly class and earthly class. The “great crowd” class introduced by Judge Rutherford out of necessity. An earthly Great Crowd was created, a second- class of people that were subject to and dependent upon the heavenly class who alone would be part of the new covenant.

  .........

  Rutherford changed the sealing of the 144,000 from the original date of 1881 to 1931. “God having a fixed time for every purpose (Ecclesiastes 3:1), his time to give creatures on earth the opportunity to get in line for a heavenly reward has been from A .D. 29 until, chiefly, 1931, called the “day of salvation. It began with Jesus at Jordan and is now rapidly nearing its end”“ (Let God be True” 1952 2ed. p.298).
  
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  44

  Money woes show it ain't the truth

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovahs people do not beg for money.

  [...] we have never considered it proper to solicit money for the lords cause, after the common custom .

  it is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Page 3 replies:

  Vidiot, I always felt that elders and the organization should protect the children or support the innocent victims when an issue like sexual abuse comes up, and that Jehovah would protect the reputation of the organization if there was a pedophile or serial killer among the members. I think I am saying something along the same lines:
  If it were truly "God's Earthly Organization" then survival should not be at risk.

  cognac, they will indeed argue such a way. They would conjure up images of prostitutes and cigarettes and bling and shiny objects and the "air" of the world in Satan's power. Still, it would seem Jehovah will make sure the magazines are paid for if He wants them out there.

  sparrowdown, I think we are used to that. Good things prove they are right. Bad things prove they are right. Everything proves they are right.
  
  
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  44

  Money woes show it ain't the truth

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovahs people do not beg for money.

  [...] we have never considered it proper to solicit money for the lords cause, after the common custom .

  it is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.

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  OnTheWayOut

  cognac, cappytan: maybe we will never really know the details on their sales and money deals.

  Thanks Punk of Nice.
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  12

  Buddhists and Jehovah's Witnesses

  by tornapart in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  recently i have just started looking into what buddhism is all about.

  i rather like the idea of a personal spirituality.

  of trying to be a better person and an acceptance of the reality of life and trying to find an inner peace and contentment.. anyway, i came across this today.

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  OnTheWayOut

  In the article, the Buddhist says of the JW, "At the end of the conversation, she was *glowing* with positive energy."

  I would hate to tell him that it's just because she "placed" books with him and he promised to read them. She sees him as a potential convert or at least someone to count much time with. As a matter of fact, she will count the time of their discussion.

  But on to better thoughts: You ask "Also, I wonder has anyone else dabbled with the idea of buddhism? Not as a replacement theology but as wanting to be a more contented person."

  Many ex-JW's have included eastern thought and eastern reading and eastern meditating in their spiritual journey. I am one of those. I favor Tao and Zen Buddhism. Whether we were seeking God or enlightenment or just inner peace, eastern thought is an excellent place to look. The beauty of such thought is that you can embrace some of it and not all of it. You don't need to "believe" a certain way to appreciate the ideas that "less is more" or that "all are equal" and that "life is precious."

  I don't care for books by "The Dalai Llama" but I have found excellent wisdom from other eastern sources. I particularly like Pema Chödrön, an American author relating to Tibetan Buddhism. She is an ordained nun and I just ignore the brief references to "master so-and-so" and focus on the thoughts when I read her books. (So even those who preach "all are equal" show that some are "more equal" than others.)
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  30

  Construction Halts & other cutbacks - Here's what I think happened

  by Listener in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  to get to the point straight away i think the crane accident that occurred at warwick was a significant catalyst that has caused the org.

  to change its plans suddenly.. list of assumptions, not all of them are validated.

  - there was a serious crane accident that occurred at warwick approx.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Regardless of why it's happening, Watchtower took the members' money away and spend it foolishly because of not calculating the costs.
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  44

  Money woes show it ain't the truth

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovahs people do not beg for money.

  [...] we have never considered it proper to solicit money for the lords cause, after the common custom .

  it is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.

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  OnTheWayOut

  steve2, it's the same story. Hold the carrot (or ice cream cone) in front of the little girl- "You can have it in Paradise while petting a lion."

  Beth Sarim, that is a good point. But your point depends on parents that don't blindly accept whatever crap WTS puts out. Still, I imagine some start to wonder.
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  51

  What is the best debate you've ever read on this board...

  by The Rebel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  who won, and why?.

  the rebel..

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  OnTheWayOut

  cognac, I am trying to fan the flames, stoke the fire, crank up THE BIGGEST BADDEST BESTEST DEBATE EVERY IN THE HISTORY OF THIS FORUM.

  Nevermind, let's just get along.
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  14

  Dubbers now sitting in flea markets to count time. Dont even try to pawn mags.

  by dogon in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  every flea market i go to a group of idiots sits under a tent top with a few mags on display with a cup of coffee playing on a phone with as much interest in pushing the cult as a teenage girl at the check out line has in bagging your groceries.

  when i was in the cult we had to work for our time.

  now its like sitting at the coffee shop bsing with the other cult idiots counting time for your pioneer status.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Everyone should ask for a Bible. If they have one, take it. Heck, ask for another. They typically won't have one, though. Then take as much as you can carry of the literatrash and put it in a trash receptacle nearby, even if they see you do that. Say, "Oh, I was done with it."
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  17

  My mom

  by cognac in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was just talking to my mom a few weeks ago.

  she said, out of all her kids, i was the only one she didn't have to worry about as far as spirituality.

  i always took a stand for jehovah.. she told when all of her kids were little, she gave us the option of not eating birthday cakes in school.

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  OnTheWayOut

  You do what you think is right as far as your mom goes, but answering questions from your mom doesn't make you some evil "apostate" no matter what their organization says.
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  44

  Money woes show it ain't the truth

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovahs people do not beg for money.

  [...] we have never considered it proper to solicit money for the lords cause, after the common custom .

  it is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.

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  OnTheWayOut

  Start Page two replies:

  Simon, I agree. I will tie your thought in with Mad Irishman's thought.
  The average member can give what he wants and nobody will say anything personally to him. It's a beautiful thing, but at the same time that member is bombarded by all those things telling him that the congregation isn't donating enough, the attendees at the assembly are not donating enough, the need is great and the members are not showing their love and faith in Jehovah, but are taking too many vacations or wanting nice things in their home when they don't need them as badly as the Governing Body needs a heated pool in that cold NY state climate.

  Plus Mad Irishman, YES- as a member of the body of elders, I felt "coerced." We had shortfalls and they asked each elder to give a set portion of that if they could (and you better back up your "I can't do it.") As a member, after dropping twenty bucks in the box at the assembly, then hearing how they are still several thousand dollars short, I felt coerced to drop in more. Maybe nobody would know, but members are trained to know that Jehovah knows you can skip a decent restaurant tonight and settle for less while out of town for the assembly.

  Phizzy, He's just no good with money. Somehow, He just can't handle money.