These arguments are frankly pathetic. We know that the heaven that Jesus came from is the spirit realm, for he dwelt there with the Father (John 17:5). So that rules out such a place for Elijah. Wanna try again?
Mondo1
JoinedPosts by Mondo1
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
Hellrider,
The author simply does not comment. He says only that Elijah was taken into heaven, what specifying what exactly "heaven" was and what happened from then on. So my interpretation is not ruled out by anything in the text, and in fact is supported by the semantic range of the word "heaven". Your view, however, is ruled out by the words of Jesus in John 3. Would you care to offer another view that is in harmony with Jesus' words?
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
hellrider,
So are you saying then that if the NT doesn't comment on something that it is true or isn't true, because many of the Jews accepted this idea of the soul's preexistence. Your argument is that Jesus argues against false teachings that he is confronted with, but Luke 16 is not dealing with a confrontation. It merely presents Christ using a preexisting tradition to present a moral lesson. Again, such does not indicate that the tradition is reality (nor does the use in itself deny it, though one could well argue that some of the things presented may make it implicit that it is not reality), only that the language suited his lesson.
On the resurrection, I agree that Christ was the first raised incorruptible and immortal, and that was my point. Being such is what one is in THE resurrection. Christ was the first to be this.
With regards for 2 Kings, I know from Jesus' statement that he is speaking of heaven as the spirit realm, for this is where he came from. However, "heaven" refers to this, space (the location of the stars) and simply the sky. I would therefore put forth, per Jesus' statement, that Elijah was not taken to the spirit realm, it makes little sense to say he was taken into space, so he must have been taken far up into the sky and from there to another location on the earth.
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Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
Leolaia,
I would disagree that the outlook is seen within Matthew, Mark or Luke. The point is that the figures in the parable typify individuals to whom Jesus is speaking to, namely, the Pharisees and the sinners to whom he is speaking. Undoubtedly some of the NT language resembles, even closely, some of the language used in extra-Biblical Jewish texts regarding the the outcome for the wicked, but one must inquired of whether or not these texts are merely drawing upon existing language, with the authors fitting them into their own views. I would suggest that such is the case, for much of the language is drawn, for example, from Daniel and Duetero-Isaiah. As an example, Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be put out; and they shall be an object of disgust to all flesh.
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
Hellrider,
Please show me where Jesus confronts the idea of the soul's preexistence please.
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
Hellrider,
I personally believe he was taken elsewhere on earth, but it doesn't matter to much, because if he was taken to heaven and lived forever, he was still not resurrected because he simply never died, so my point remains. It is amazing though that you deny Jesus' express words that nobody has ascended to heaven (John 3:13) and Paul's express statement that Jesus was the first raised (Col. 1:18; 1Cor. 15:20).
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
Lore,
You cannot legitimately compare this text to others that have anthropomorphic language. It is exegetically dishonest, as these are humans and so not presenting anthropomorphisms! You, and others, continue to miss the point that Jesus didn't pull this story out of thin air, but there was a preexisting tradition from which he drew. This does not necessitate that the events actually transpired, only that it was a story that his listeners (the Pharisees) had a general understanding of.
Your comparison between this and Jesus and Elijah is non sequetur. Those two were alive, in the parable these two are said to have died.
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
Hellrider,
I see that you were unable to address the questions pertaining to the context of the parable that I presented and you also have not addressed that the rich man and Lazarus were not souls, but that they were in flesh! One does not need to find a distinction between soul and flesh to see the text plainly articulates that they are flesh, not immaterial, outside of the body. The text relates that Lazarus died and was carried away. He was not given another body, he was not outside of his body, he was simply carried away. So too for the rich man, he was simply buried, and from being buried he was "in hades." He was not carried away to hades, he was not given a new body, he was simply there from being buried.
The only time that Jesus disagrees with the Sadducees was on the resurrection. He never disagreed with them on the matter of the soul and that it does not live on after death. So your point is moot.
And as for Jesus in the resurrection, sure others were resurrected, but not in THE resurrection, to immortality, which is the NT focus.
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
Hellrider,
You miss the point. Jesus' use of story does not mean he is teaching the doctrine that they had, it means only that he was using the story to illustrate something in his parable. You seem to have this false idea that a parable must be based upon reality, which simply is not true. One cannot ignore that this text is not speaking of departed souls, but only whole people, able to drink, able to feel physical pain, etc. The parable, if you watch the context, is speaking of "the rich" and those "who God helps." Who, in context, are these? According to the context, what changed that would correlate to their deaths? And, if you continue reading, what is ever so tiny that one could relate to only a drop of water? If you can answer these questions, reading Luke 15-17, you'll understand the parable perfectly and you'll see how it has nothing to do with teaching of a reality and is merely language that his audience knew so to make it easy for him to relate the lesson.
Now you ask a number of questions about if Jesus did the same thing in other places, and of course he didn't have to! We know 1) that this is based upon a preexisting tradition and 2) Jesus borrowed the language of the tradition and adapted it for his own purposes. He doesn't have to have done this more than once for him to have done it here. The fact that you have issue with taking the figures as symbols or representations of things defined in the context only demonstrates that you have not carefully studied the context!
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47
Luke 16: 19-24
by vlad in19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.
yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.
i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.
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Mondo1
TheListener,
And the apostle Paul could come up with ways to say things without quoting from Greek poets, but he did it anyway. It makes sense to use something that your audience is familiar with to explain something to them.