Posts by andyg

21

whats it all about?

by andyg in

my mum used to be a jw, she was baptised after about 3 years and carried on for about another 2. she first started taking me to the meetings when i was about 8, and carried on week after week until she was disfellowshipped (she went a bit mad and left home, but that's by the by).

the point is im 21 now and trying to make sense of the stuff i was brought up with for 5 years.

if anyone could shed light on one or two things i'd be most grateful (and some of it i might have wrong anyway).. - before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian.

andyg

I should mention there are not that many practicing JW's on this site. The last few years the Watchtower Society (WTS) has warned good members away from the internet... This leaves no room for reasonable questioning or debate, and the person is stuck in an illogical, sometimes damaging worldview.

is this the point you were making? or if not do you agree with it? i mean, i take it you're a devout believer yourself and you've obviously been very active here, helping people out. also, do you believe a person can be considered a faithful JW without necessarily believing all the stories? when i first posted here i expected a lot of ignorant zealots who would refuse to discuss anything, but people here are very open-minded and pleasant (thanks by the way for all your welcomes!) do you believe it's possible for a 'practicing' JW to discount altogether stories like noah's ark? or the story of isaac and abraham? because, and with respect, stories like this are beyond mad. you're obviously a very well-read person though (cognitive dissonance is something we touched briefly upon last year, and i will certainly be following this up), so what are your views here?

21

Did You Know what You Were Getting Into?

by Honesty in

we as jehovah's witnesses do not allow people to become baptized prior to gaining accurate knowledge of what we believe and teach according to the bible.

if someone wants to join with us in worship and become baptized, they must also demonstrate that they know what they are getting into.

that they agree with what we believe and teach.. .

andyg

Even this elder and his wife portrayed the happiest family life ever. LIE! we found out later that JW's are the most miserable people we know.

this is so true. my mum used to drag me to the meetings from age 8-13, and she now admits her main reason was that she wanted us to be like all the other happy families. 4 of the kids there were in my school (3 in my year), and she didnt believe me when i told her they were hostile and unhappy. 2 of them were full-on bullies, but then at the meetings they would stand there in suits and ties with their parents, and it did look idyllic. it was all so false it really drove me potty, and made me so unhappy. looking back on these times, not only am i so glad to be out of it, i really resent my mum for being so stupid as to not realise (she, by the way, turned her back on it all and started having affairs and taking drugs more or less overnight). one of these kids' dads (who was an elder) started an affair online, and left his family to move to australia. one of the other kids (after a lifetime of being isolated from others) went crazy aged 16 and needed years of counselling and medication. in year 6, our teacher told us he was the only person in her 9 years of teaching to ever get 100% on some maths test, i mean he was freakishly clever - now he's a window cleaner. a lovely JW regular called alan hung himself when i was 10. and no one at the meetings would have seen any of this coming because theyre so superficial to each other. i'd have so much more respect for JWs in general if they were honest.

21

whats it all about?

by andyg in

my mum used to be a jw, she was baptised after about 3 years and carried on for about another 2. she first started taking me to the meetings when i was about 8, and carried on week after week until she was disfellowshipped (she went a bit mad and left home, but that's by the by).

the point is im 21 now and trying to make sense of the stuff i was brought up with for 5 years.

if anyone could shed light on one or two things i'd be most grateful (and some of it i might have wrong anyway).. - before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian.

andyg

well wow, im really impressed at how open-minded you all are. a lot of these questions developed over time, but when i used to ask about things like the vegetarian question at our kingdom hall i just found people to be deliberately vague. no one would admit that they didn't know, or accept flaws in their beliefs. so this is encouraging, really. the last person that posted - how long were you involved and what made you lose your faith? my mum had all these crazy ideas about the devil posessing her, this was her excuse to behave like a whore and still claim belief. she's so frustrating because she still says she believes in it all, and that she had no reason at all to turn her back. what were your reasons? did you feel, like me, that there were more questions than answers, and the JW faith was often too vague? my main problems with christianity in general is the concept of original sin, that we should all repent something two people 6000 years ago probably didnt do - and the ransom sacrifice, that we should all be grateful for something 2000 years ago that probably didn't happen. obviously, it's all a question of faith, but no matter what their beliefs, nobody should be guilt-tripped into worship.

my main problem with the JW faith is that i don't agree with the view (as OnTheWayOut said) that 6 billion people to inherit the earth from all who have ever lived is a liberal proportion. again, the issue of what makes a good and bad person is open to debate, but to exclude those from other religions is silly. when you consider that many past generations faced intense state pressure here (and a lot of people still do), it's not a level playing field at all. if God really exists, and this is His logic, then you really have to take a step back and think. but please don't think i'm being offensive, i'm just trying to understand why so many people are so devoted. you all seem like great people, and thanks for being so helpful and open-minded. oh and also, what is meant by WTS?

21

whats it all about?

by andyg in

my mum used to be a jw, she was baptised after about 3 years and carried on for about another 2. she first started taking me to the meetings when i was about 8, and carried on week after week until she was disfellowshipped (she went a bit mad and left home, but that's by the by).

the point is im 21 now and trying to make sense of the stuff i was brought up with for 5 years.

if anyone could shed light on one or two things i'd be most grateful (and some of it i might have wrong anyway).. - before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian.

andyg

my mum used to be a JW, she was baptised after about 3 years and carried on for about another 2. she first started taking me to the meetings when i was about 8, and carried on week after week until she was disfellowshipped (she went a bit mad and left home, but that's by the by). the point is im 21 now and trying to make sense of the stuff i was brought up with for 5 years. a lot of it seems very strange to me. if anyone could shed light on one or two things i'd be most grateful (and some of it i might have wrong anyway).

- before noah's flood, all animals were vegetarian. obviously the questions here are endless.

- i was always told that JWs do not believe in wearing crosses because "you wouldn't exactly frame the shotgun that killed your dad." but i don't really follow this logic: the ransom sacrifice was the supreme gesture; the saviour of mankind. all christianity is built on it, so this argument seems weak. also, that JWs believe Christ was crucified with his arms upward rather than outstretched. what evidence is there for this and why does it matter? the cross symbol could still be valid, as i suppose a name plaque would have been nailed above him.

- how can the story of job be seen as anything other than morbid? obviously this is a criticism levelled at all christianity, but i still fail to understand. a similar question exists over adam and eve, and the snake. if God, in his infinite wisdom, created mankind to be perfect, why did they prove imperfect? it seems to me we cannot be punished for what is, fundamentally, an oversight on His part.

- the ransom sacrifice, and the whole thing about God biding his time before destroying satan. why? if God created everything?

- a key precursor to armageddon will be the banning of religion, and this will wipe out all but the jehovah's witnesses. how and why? governments of the east are founded on religion; the USA is founded on freedom of speech and association. and even if it did happen, how will the other thousands of religions die out and not JW? are you thinking that maybe an attempt (most likely by the USA i suppose) to ban religion will result in world war 3?

- after armageddon, only the faithful and the 'sheeplike ones' will be ressurected to inherit the new order. practically speaking, the process will have to be VERY selective, taking into account all past generations. or do you think that maybe a literal 'new world' will be created?

- what if these 'sheeplike ones' belong to another religion? do these good-natured people need to be free from any other religious orientation to survive armageddon?

- 144,000 will go to heaven. does the HQ keep a list of those claiming? because, from generations of billions of people, one of them lives about 10 miles away and one of them lives just around the corner. this strikes me as very odd. also, are all these people destined to follow the JW faith? i mean, they were selected before they were born, so what if they develop as unpleasant people? i'm interested here in official JW lines on destiny.

- just a minor note, those living within the new order will surely be driven mad with everlasting life. to me, the concept just doesn't seem reasonable. yes, on the one hand, life is a very profound concept and it seems so strange for it to be contained in the short time between life and death. reading up on jungian philosophies here has been driving me mad, and i do believe there is a point to it. creation is a perfectly valid logic. on the other hand, though, the adam and eve story surely tells us that we are not infallible. anyone granted everlasting life would go crazy. we can say, well things will be different, and mankind will be perfect, but how can we know? yes, satan will have been destroyed, but in the beginning, he served only to highlight mankind's inherent flaws. with everlasting life, these will surely be borne out again before long, and things will be back how they were. at the end of the day, who can say that this whole cycle hasn't happened loads of times already? it only takes one angel to go bad, spontaneously and for no apparent reason.

- and one tiny thing, is the songbook you use the same worldwide? and is it updated ever?

so that's all i can think of for now really. i guess a lot of it is just taken on faith, and is unanswerable (the old 'why does God allow suffering' enigma). the main one i really wanted to get my head around was the 1st one - cos my mum used to genuinely believe this, and i want to know what the official line is here. one thing i do like about the JW faith is their insistence that good-natured people will not expire at armageddon, regardless of their adhereance to it. but what about someone like me, who spent 5 years attending meetings, then decided it was pointless devoting your life to something there is absolutely no real evidence for? and decided that issues like pre-marital sex and drug use are questions of personal morality? they say "make the truth your own", and i believe that a truly wise and loving god understands my point of view. because it's impossible to know for sure what it's all about. i'm interested in all your views though, because i know that people far cleverer than me, and far happier than me, have adopted this stuff late on in life and hold it steadfast.