Posts by dubla

105

Anti-Americanism

by Englishman in

jw
friends

how do you define someone as anti-american?

if you strongly disapprove of, say, america's foreign policies, yet basically have an affection for american people, does this still make you an anti-american?

is it possible that people are being accused of being anti-american inaccurately?

dubla

abaddon-

Whether these movies are succesful or not ouside of America, I don't see as an argument

ah, but the fact that they were successful inside of america was your original argument about judging the united states as a nation. i just turned it around and asked, can we judge the people of another nation in the same way, according to what was/is "successful" entertainment in that country? i never made a claim about the movies being "good" because of their success....this idea was yet another strawman from you.

as you said; neither of us has shown any figures pertaining to boxoffice success.

actually i did...i just didnt leave a link. if youd like one, i can provide it.

You haven't at any point agreed that is someone would criticise country B as well as the USA for a certain action, then obviously they can't be anti-American

i thought i had agreed on that, but maybe i didnt in so many words. actually, my whole original point somewhat stemmed from this idea, as i showed an example of someone that was criticizing country B and the USA for the war in iraq, but subsequently stating that country B was still somehow "better" because of the way it was going about executing the same "mistake". sort of a "i think both countries are wrong, but mine is less wrong for the same action" line of thinking. anyhow, i do agree with your above statement in principle.

You also haven't made any comments on considerations of scale, which obviously lead to the USA getting more criticism.

actually i did comment on this....and i agreed that the extra criticism was expected.

I also think that for someone who isn't bothered by the amount of criticism or by what you see as anti-Americanism, and for someone who finds it funny other people waste their energy with such obsessions, you do spend an awful amount of time responding to threads where people criticise America and act in ways you might see as anti-American.

if you mean the threads in general about the war and america, i really think theyve been enjoyable and educational....not bothersome on a personal level. they were/are topics that are interesting to me, and i have the same discussions with friends and family members (none of who id consider to be anti-american, btw). am i personally bothered by someone who i think is anti-american? not in the least. will i back up something i believe in during an extended debate with such a person? all day long. its pretty easy to tell who the people are that get personally worked up over the anti-american sentiment.....personal attacks and yelling generally come out in their responses to what is recieved as "america bashing"....or perhaps they simply decide to leave the board because of it. i would also add here, that i do understand why some get worked up, and the fact that its not necessarily my hot button doesnt mean i think their feelings are unwarranted.....quite the contrary.

Hmmmm... but that's me having an opinion and discerning things again, isn't it?

its you implying that im a bold-faced liar, and yes, you are entitled to that opinion.

Nowhere, in as many words. But you've certainly said you are of the opinion you can tell.
So, am I anti-American?

honestly, ive never thought so. i believe i even thanked you for your objective input on the wmd thread, if i remember correctly. that was hardly an accusation of america bashing, was it?

aa

105

Anti-Americanism

by Englishman in

jw
friends

how do you define someone as anti-american?

if you strongly disapprove of, say, america's foreign policies, yet basically have an affection for american people, does this still make you an anti-american?

is it possible that people are being accused of being anti-american inaccurately?

dubla

abaddon-

sorry....i was out of town from thursday morning until saturday night, and didnt have access to a comp.

You want a pattern? Okay, The Patriot distorts history, We Were Soldiers distorts history, The Thin Red Line distorts history... Blackhawk Down is a doodie; the Sudanese die like video game characters, compare the portrayal of their suffering to the US troops suffering... hell dubla, even Pocahontas is historically inaccurate. There's a film about the Battle of Britain in production that might even top the lot of them.

actually, the pattern i was asking for was this idea of heros of other nationalities being replaced by americans. this was obviously just one movie, and you were seemingly basing an argument behind it. as far as "distorting history" to make america look better, i personally felt we were soldiers and black hawk down both made significant points about mistakes the u.s. made, not glamorous acts.....im not familiar with the thin red line or pocahontas. once again though, war movies in general arent that successful in the united states, in fact they are may well be more succesful in non-u.s. markets, as i showed.....this point alone detracts from your sweeping generalizations about the type of movies that are successful, and what this supposedly says about the u.s. as a nation. you didnt answer my question about successful movies in the u.s. being equally successful in non-u.s. markets.....does this say something about those nations as well? can we judge them by the entertainment that sells there?

You didn't answer my questuion about whetehr you thought that was normal, did you?

yes i did, please review.

If France made a movie where the French Army drove the Germans from Paris, I would be just as derisive - if not more so - so I ain't being anti-American in criticising that.

i never claimed you were being anti-american, please review.

I am just given SO MUCH MATERIAL by America in comparison to other countries, that you, with your belief that America is No.1 or the best country in the world to live in, really feel offended when your home gets criticised, and can't believe that it's deserved.

the strawman is so easy to defeat, isnt it? when did i say i was offended, or that america was the best country in the world to live in? in fact, you must try really hard to ignore specific statements that go against the picture youre attempting to paint.....maybe you missed this:

its not that i dont like it....in fact it doesnt bother me that there are so many criticisms......it doesnt bother me that there are people who are anti-american either (i actually think its kinda funny that people even waste their energy with such obsessions).

does that sound like im taking offense?

But to make an assumption that consistant criticism is automatically a sign of anti-Americanism is unwise.

i dont think its "automatically" anything. i think (again, MY opinion only here), that people arent that hard to read, given enough of their input on any subject.

Look, dubla, I'll tell you a secret; I believe the USA could be instrumental in pulling the world out of a potentially risky period that will historically probably be seen as an unstable period between the end of the Cold War and the establishment of a more effective union of nations that will help the world become a safer fairer place. How anti-American is that? I think your country could be the most effective contributer towards a safe world for our children and grandchildren. How anti-American is that?

that pesky strawman, better knock him out of the ballpark this time. when exactly did i accuse you of being anti-american?

aa

37

World's smallest political quiz..

by Aztec in

jw
friends

i found this very enlightening:.

http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html.

i kind of surprised myself.

dubla

aztec-

who knew? i guess not everyone that agreed with ousting hussein is a brainwashed right-wing bush drone after all.

aa

37

World's smallest political quiz..

by Aztec in

jw
friends

i found this very enlightening:.

http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html.

i kind of surprised myself.

dubla

aa

105

Anti-Americanism

by Englishman in

jw
friends

how do you define someone as anti-american?

if you strongly disapprove of, say, america's foreign policies, yet basically have an affection for american people, does this still make you an anti-american?

is it possible that people are being accused of being anti-american inaccurately?

dubla

czar-

it was abaddon that was obsessing about u-571, not simon.

aa

105

Anti-Americanism

by Englishman in

jw
friends

how do you define someone as anti-american?

if you strongly disapprove of, say, america's foreign policies, yet basically have an affection for american people, does this still make you an anti-american?

is it possible that people are being accused of being anti-american inaccurately?

dubla

bttt for abaddon.

aa

10

The Underbelly Adventures of Hoopy & Snorf

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

what's the first thing you thought of when you saw this title?

dubla

ive got to click on this just to see what the hell it is.

aa

33

Monday Night Football

by Valis in

wow...i watched most of the colts vs. bucs game last night and i have to say that was possibly one of the best games i have seen in a long time.

3 touchdowns in 4 minutes!

and a wobbly field goal to win the game....it was a fun watch.. sincerely,.

dubla

i am also guilty of falling asleep when the bucs were rolling all over the colts.......i had to hear it from everyone else in the office today who had the patience and hope to watch the whole thing. i guess it serves me right for not rooting for the hometown colts.

aa

105

Anti-Americanism

by Englishman in

jw
friends

how do you define someone as anti-american?

if you strongly disapprove of, say, america's foreign policies, yet basically have an affection for american people, does this still make you an anti-american?

is it possible that people are being accused of being anti-american inaccurately?

dubla

abaddon-

What you are excluding from consideration is that someone can make seemingly continual criticisms of the USA and NOT be anti-American IF they criticise other countries in a fair and proportionate fashion.

i havent excluded that.....and i agree. i still contend that if someone is arguing just for the sake of criticizing/antagonizng/annoying/provoking/etc, its usually trasparent. this is just my opinion, and obviously there isnt any way to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. i dont think its that difficult to read someones overall attitude on any subject, given enough examples of their input.

OF COURSE THE US WILL GET MORE CRITICISM THAT WAY!
It's jaw-droppingly silly to think otherwise.
If you don't like it, then stop being the most important powerful country in the world.

its not that i dont like it....in fact it doesnt bother me that there are so many criticisms......it doesnt bother me that there are people who are anti-american either (i actually think its kinda funny that people even waste their energy with such obsessions). i doubt highly that the average canadian gives a rats a** what i think of his country either (i love canada btw). eman asked how to identify someone who is anti-american, and i gave examples......only my opinions.

Life imitates art and art imitates life; if there was no market for films where Americans are portrayed as heros even when they weren't involved, why do they make them? Obviously because they are afraid that no Americans will go and see the movie if it doesn't adjust history to make it interesting to them.

now you are making sweeping generalizations with no basis whatsoever.....youre really trying hard to make your point about hollywood, and youre going farther and farther off base with it. first off, since youre so intent on making this point, youre going to have to set some type of standard for it. is this some huge pattern youve discovered (men of other nationalities being replaced by americans in war movies), or is it just this one movie you mentioned (that ive never seen btw, and i dont think it was particularly that "successful" either). what if i give an example of a movie that goes directly against your mold (a war movie that paints the u.s. in a bad light), and was extremely successful.....does that nullify your side of it?

If that isn't a comment on Americans in general, what is? Hollywood thinks Americans are insular, ignorant and vain; you can tell this by what they serve at the local multiplex! The fact such movies are succesful seems to indicate that Americans like the product.

more sweeping generalizations........ill give you a list of successful movies (served up at the local multiplex), and you tell me how they back your above statement.

-e.t.

-titanic

-how the grinch stole xmas

-my big fat greek wedding

-rush hour

-crocodile dundee

ill leave the list short for now....but you can see where im going. just in case youre going to make the argument that you only meant war movies, youd still need a list of "successful" movies that back your stance, and war movies arent particularly successful in the united states. in fact, out of the top 25 highest grossing movies of all time (domestic), guess how many are war movies? exactly zero. you have to go down to number 43 before you find a war movie (saving private ryan), and there are only two in the top 100. i doubt U-571 made the top 1000, as i am a huge movie buff, and as i said, ive never seen it.

interestingly enough, the top 100 highest grossing movies of all time at the international (non-usa) market mirrors the domestic list pretty closely (curiously, saving private ryan comes in at 34). apparently, hollywood is doing a pretty good job of giving the entire world the type of product they want. can we judge every country by the movies that were "successful" there? i mean, if the type of entertainment that sells in a particular country doesnt make a statement about the people that live there, what does, right?

Why can't Americans take responsibility for being Americans? Isn't it enough to be in the most powerful country in the world? Do we have to keep the level of criticism below that of say, Portugual, before you think its fair?

again, i dont think its unfair or upsetting. the criticisms are to be expected, no doubt, and ive never argued against such a claim, though youd like to paint it as if i had. i merely answered emans question(s) with my opinions. he was asking for opinions, wasnt he?

aa

105

Anti-Americanism

by Englishman in

jw
friends

how do you define someone as anti-american?

if you strongly disapprove of, say, america's foreign policies, yet basically have an affection for american people, does this still make you an anti-american?

is it possible that people are being accused of being anti-american inaccurately?

dubla

abaddon-

You say here you can tell the difference between someone opposing some American policies and someone making it a point to oppose American policies

no, thats not what i said there. what i said was its easy to spot the difference between someone opposing some american policies and a person who seemingly makes a special effort to enthusiastically oppose almost everything america does (this doesnt have to be limited to policies, as in my example about the mission titles). are they criticizing because they feel strongly about this specific policy/action, or do they have a history of generally criticizing all american policies/actions/etc, (and in the case of my example, nit-picking on the most ridiculous aspects just for the sake of nit-picking)?

can you generally tell the difference between someone arguing a point they believe in, and someone arguing just for the sake of criticizing/antagonizng/annoying/provoking/etc? if you answered yes, then maybe youll understand what i meant by the question: "do we really need a definition to spot these patterns?".

Jason and Freddy do not address America's presentation of itself as a nation or its self image as a nation in the same way as war movies, so, nice dodge, but your quarterback is still eating Astroturf.

i used an extreme example to show how ridiculous it is to judge america as a nation based on hollywood fluff. your implication was such a joke, unintentionally, that i had to take a sarcastic jab at it.

Do you think that it is normal for the USA to change the nationality of heros in war movies so they are American?

if when you say "the USA", you mean the u.s. government, then i would say absolutely not. if by "the USA" you mean trimark pictures (or any other studio), then id say its as normal as anything else that comes out of hollywood, where everything is exagerrated, sensationalized, and made for one purpose: to sell tickets (notice the purpose was not to educate children on american history). judging the united states as a nation based on the decisions of a script writer is a bit of a reach (translation: completey ludicrous).

aa