Posts by dubla

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

realist-

no, i dont expect you to remember......thats why i refreshed your memory for you!

aa

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

realist-

btw.....

powells claim that there are WMD in iraq would gain some credibility. certainly not much but a little. as to his reposrt...as you know part of it was debunked as 12 year old student paper already the very next day!

thats not what you said.....i specifcally asked you about the credibility of his report, not just his "claim that there are wmd in iraq". here was my question:

i just have a question here......what if (now bear with me here, its a "what if" question) the trucks found recently turn out to be the very trucks that powell presented to the un in that report (the mobile bio factories)? does this add credibility to other areas of his report, or would it simply be a grand coincidence?

and your response:

about powell....yes indeed, if these trucks would have turned out the be the ones shown on the satellite pictures i would agree....but they didn'T.

at the time you thought there were no new truck finds (which there were), but either way, you agreed that other areas of his report would indeed gain credibility if the trucks turned out to be the very trucks that he presented to the u.n. now all you have to do is stand by your words if these biolabs are confirmed by the international inspectors.

aa

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

realist-

when and how?

almost immediately after the declaration was given to the u.n., undeclared warheads were found. there were a few other violations if i remember correctly (unmanned drone?), but without rehashing everything and doing even more digging, thats the one that stood out at the beginning, and it only takes one lie in the report to negate the whole thing, imo.

for me the whole thing revolves around the credibility of the US admin.

and for me, its all about past evidence of wmd (iraqs own admission) and the lack of ability to show they had been destroyed.

aa

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

realist-

by the way...you said you would revise your thinking if no WMD were found in iraq. how much time do you give the inspectors to find something

unlike the skeptics, i really dont have a timeline in mind. we just lost more soldiers in combat (in iraq), and i realize that the search for wmd is only a piece of whats taking place in iraq right now. as ive already stated, one conservative estimate i saw had the search lasting until at least september, in order for it to be thorough, so i suppose if youre looking for deadline, that could be a preliminary one.

and how much material would it have to be for you to be satisfied with the bush admin and with what powell said infront of the UN?

how much material? enough for iraqs weapons declaration to be proven a lie (ooops, it already was proven a lie). any evidence proving there were wmd there prior to the war would suffice for me......all the skeptics have said iraq has zero wmd........so it doesnt take much to prove there is more than zero.

as far as powell goes, you know ive never based any of my beliefs on his presentation, and ive repeated that many times. the only real reason ive been discussing it, is that simon based a large part of his argument/complaint on this presentation, so i merely took the time to debunk that argument.

while we are on the subject, you said that if trucks were found that matching powells description, you would agree that the rest of his report would gain considerable credibility.

aa

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

realist-

now with all due respect...the existence of a lab - even if able to produce bioweapons - does not mean bioweapons indeed existed! every university with a bio department has equipment that could be used to produce bio weapons.

with all due respect, there is a colossal difference between universities having equipment that could be used for such purposes, and having a mobile laboratory that could have no other conceivable use than the production of bio weapons. but, only time will tell if thats the case or not. i just think your example is a bit suspect.

also, if the finding would be substantial bush and co would have made a big fuss about it already.

my guess is that theres a fear of "crying wolf" too many times....which is exactly what the administration has been accused of already. at this point, i would speculate that only confirmed evidence (which is no doubt why international inspectors are being called in, and this is a huge step im sure youd agree) will be ballyhooed.

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865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

realist-

as i said, it was probably wishful thinking.....im sure even if international inspectors label the trucks as bio labs, there will still be people claiming we planted them there. here was the previous article on the find...i thought i had given you this? anyhow, its funny how the trucks match powells description.....must be a wild coincidence.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/13/sprj.irq.mobile.lab/index.html

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865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

realist-

the same trucks i talked to you about before.....every expert that has examined them so far has come to the conclusion that they could only be used for bioweapons.....of course these experts are biased in the eyes of skeptics, because they are coalition inspectors.

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/4/044732-5584-010.html

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865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

I suppose the Mobile Chem Bio Labs mean nothing.

speaking of the mobile bio labs (which happen to match the description powell gave to a tee), international inspectors are en route to iraq to examine the bio labs find. this should (maybe this is wishful thinking) quiet the critics who have been moaning about international inspectors being shut out of the process.

aa

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

search-

you mustve listened to an edited version of the report then. heres an excerpt from the presentation powell gave....please not the bold/italic portion at the bottom:

Let's look at one. This one is about a weapons munition facility, a facility that holds ammunition at a place called Taji. This is one of about 65 such facilities in Iraq. We know that this one has housed chemical munitions. In fact, this is where the Iraqis recently came up with the additional four chemical weapons shells.
Here you see 15 munitions bunkers in yellow and red outlines. The four that are in red squares represent active chemical munitions bunkers.

How do I know that? How can I say that? Let me give you a closer look. Look at the image on the left. On the left is a close-up of one of the four chemical bunkers. The two arrows indicate the presence of sure signs that the bunkers are storing chemical munitions. The arrow at the top that says "security" points to a facility that is a signature item for this kind of bunker. Inside that facility are special guards and special equipment to monitor any leakage that might come out of the bunker. The truck you also see is a signature item. It's a decontamination vehicle in case something goes wrong. This is characteristic of those four bunkers. The special security facility and the decontamination vehicle will be in the area, if not at any one of them or one of the other, it is moving around those four and it moves as needed to move as people are working in the different bunkers.

Now look at the picture on the right. You are now looking at two of those sanitized bunkers. The signature vehicles are gone, the tents are gone. It's been cleaned up. And it was done on the 22nd of December as the UN inspection team is arriving, and you can see the inspection vehicles arriving in the lower portion of the picture on the right.

The bunkers are clean when the inspectors get there. They found nothing.

He never said that they were pictures of sites that had been 'cleaned up' by the Iraqi's.

um, he didnt? er, please explain the above then...im confused?

I listened to the Powell presentation and he insisted that the satelite photo's were of WMD in-situ and they were the excuse to go in.

this is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. powells presentation WAS NOT "the excuse to go in".........the reason to "go in" was that saddam had not fully complied with res.1441, which called for military action. powells presentation was simply a last ditch effort to unite the security council, it was not, in any way shape or form, the primary reason/evidence given to support the invasion. there was a mountain of evidence before powell ever spoke to the u.n., which is why ive always stated that my personal belief that there are wmd in iraq has never been due to anything powell said.....his report is really secondary to the years of lies and dancing by saddam and company. the proof was there long ago.

aa

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

dubla

search-

youre not actually simon posting under a different handle, are you? its amazing that you two have the exact same faulty logic on this issue........have you read my posts to him? basically im just going to repeat myself here yet again, but here we go......

showed pictures of WMD, but they had been cleared...when? Before the war?

yes before the war....as a matter of fact, he even specifically said that inspectors had been to the sites after they had been cleared! is this hard to grasp? have you even read the u.n. documents, or are you just regurgitating what youve heard?

If they were cleared before the war then there were none to get so why invade.

like simon, you are confusing cleared or "cleaned" with destroyed. to clean up a site simply means to move the chemicals out, and bulldoze the evidence.......the chemicals get moved, not destroyed. do you understand the difference? if no one knows where they were moved to, how could they give specific coodinates on the current location? they cant, and they never pretended to.......youre trying to twist his presentation into something it wasnt.

If he showed WMD that had to be destroyed then they must have been current pictures or that would be lying wouldn't it?

like i said, inspectors have been to the site after the pictures were taken.....powell said this while showing the photos. please read the documents for yourself, i think itll help.

aa