Posts by Duncan

I singled out Paps and Weno because of their endurance . Oh, sure –we had elders who had a brief flirtation – a crazy season – with one particular phrase or another….

I well remember when our then-PO went overboard on the phrase “…at the same time…” EVERY-bloody-THING seemingly was happening at the same time as everything else. “When we render sacred service to Jehovah then at the same time we prove Satan a liar” ... “ We, as true Christians study God’s Word the Bible and, at the same time, come to an accurate knowledge of the truth…”

We toyed with the idea of calling him “The Simultaneous Man” but it really wasn’t catchy enough , and besides, he lost interest after a few weeks. No endurance, you see.

Or another Elder, the Theocratic Ministry School Servant at the time, who had a brief, weeks-long infatuation with the construction “Why…how..”

“Why, how glad we can be that Jehovah’s Organisation….”

“Why, how marvellous to welcome so many to this weeks Public Talk!”

But Why-how just didn’t stand the test of time – no how.

But, Paps and Weno! They showed true Christian Perseverance! Yes, indeed, we know that – paps – they stayed faithful to their – paps – ridiculous verbal security blankets through years and years, with never a deviation. We know that this – paps – enduring steadfastness was - paps - the true mark of Watchtower-speak Greatness.

They’re probably still at it, even now. Way to go, (paps)

Duncan.

7

The Paps and Weno Show

by Duncan in

jw
friends

dear all,.

to those who used to read h2o last year, and have seen this, apologies.

dear all.

Duncan

Dear all,

To those who used to read H2O last year, and have seen this, apologies. It's another reheat.

*****************

Dear all

Whereas for a period of about twenty years, I really didn't give Jehovah's Witnesses much of a thought, now since finding this site - and reading the posts most days - I find myself casting my mind back more often to the time when I was "in" and stuff which happened then.

The other day I remembered all about Paps and Weno. And it made me smile all over again.

Paps and Weno were two Elders in our congregation. We had, I don't know, only about 6 or 7 Elders in total , so between them these two took up a fair amount of Platform time.

John C. was "Paps" and Les P was "Weno". Their nicknames - which as far as I'm aware they never knew about - arose from their respective speaking styles, and mannerisms.

Paps was actually saying "Perhaps" , but that's the way he said it, and he said it in virtually EVERY sentence:

"Brothers, I wonder if - paps - you'd turn with me to 2nd Corinthians,
Chapter 3, and - paps - reading from verse 5... Jehovah here is - paps - giving us counsel which - paps - we should apply to our selves..."

And so on and - paps - so on.

Weno - of course - said "We Know" - and said it practically all the time.

"Well, We know, of course that Jehovah is guiding us in this time of the end, and we know that he has given us instruction in his word the Bible. Brothers, we know that we must listen to this wise instruction, because we know the end is ..."

There were a group of us pioneers in the congregation at that time. I
joined the group in 1970, and left it in 1974, and while I was in it
numbered between 4 and 6 (the makeup of the group churned over the years).

One of the things I remember was coming into the group all wide-eyed and innocent, and quickly learning the cynical group culture. The one big thing you learned pretty much straight off was how to cheat your time, making a call on a not-at-home early in the morning, going off to a café for an hour or two then doing some magazine route calls, walking around the shops, more route calls and counting the whole day.

The other big thing was taking the piss out of the Elders. Any mannerism or defect or mockable thing was latched on to and used in ruthless ridicule. Jon, the oldest pioneer (it was all young, single brothers) was the ringleader but I must admit, I was pretty good at this.

Hence we had Paps and Weno.

I remember sitting in the Willow café, over several cups of coffee,
laughing about how "The Paps and Weno Show" had gone the previous night.

Jon sometimes would keep count. "Well Paps went nuts last night! 61 times in a twenty-minute Instruction Talk! Unbelievable!"

Weno, in particular had a very distinctive, easily mimicked voice. We would order up coffee as Weno:

"We know we would like 4 coffees please and, well, we know that 3 of these should have milk, but we know that only 1 has sugar..." You had to be there, I suppose because I'm laughing at this even as I type, and I guess it won't look funny at all onscreen.

Oh, we kept it hidden from the regular publishers, of course - didn't want to "stumble anyone" after all. But, in fact, the secret nature of the mockery just reinforced the group identity all the more and made us feel superior to the ordinary publishers.

Remembering this got me to wondering... were we alone in this? Did anyone else make fun of "Those Reaching Out and Taking the Lead" in such a thoroughly reprehensible manner?

Anyone else remember anything similar?

Duncan

24

SPEAKING IN TONGUES

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i am a believer in christ have been df'd since 7/01, but left the jw's in my heart for some time before that.. i feel that the gifts of the spirit didn't end in the 1st and 2nd century but should continue until the church is no longer on earth.. i have been to serveral different christian groups and have heard many speak in tongues, but to be honest i'm not very impressed.. it seems to be, not supernatural,.. but more like the reaction you get when you jump in very cold water, and get a terrible chill that makes your jaw vibrate.. the women seems to be the most prominent ones in speaking in tongues, so i wonder if it is just an emotional response, more than any thing else?.

and if paul said to limit the speaking in tongues to just 2 and only if there is an interpeter, why does the speaking in tongues become so prominent at these meetings?

and how come i never hear a translator interpet what is said?.

Duncan

COMF said:

Ich iememnoff porthemest blesto u rabafilium. Feelia mortafren li coroborundo daspaciola ta methubla

I love the way you Texans talk!

Here in the UK we would have said:

“Ich ieMAMNORFF porthemest blestEW u rabafilium. FILUWER morTERfren li coroBAROUNDo daspaciola TEW methuBLUR” - except, I think, the Scots say it a bit differently again.

I just love the accents thing.

Duncan.

78

You Know a Spiritual Coward

by AlanF in

jw
friends

here is another unequivocal example of a claim of direct inspiration: in the olin moyle court case of 1943, fred franz said under oath that no man is the editor of the watchtower.

who, then, is the editor?

who became the editor?

Duncan

Alan

Excellent. Enjoyable read, too; well written.

Just don't go expecting any reasoned, point-by-point rebuttal by Unoh any time soon though, okay?

Regards

Duncan.

6

Feeling Sorry for the Current GB

by Duncan in

jw
friends

why, today, have i managed to make myself feel sorry for the current gb?.

ill explain.... in another current thread on jwd, wherein unoh has yet again valiantly marched out upon the plain to confront the armies of apostasia, alanf makes an interesting observation:.

jw leaders are the ones who exploit others...having become old and spiritually ossified, they cannot change.

Duncan

Why, today, have I managed to make myself feel sorry for the current GB?

I’ll explain…

In another current thread on JWD, wherein Unoh has yet again valiantly marched out upon the plain to confront the armies of Apostasia, AlanF makes an interesting observation:

“JW leaders are the ones who exploit others…Having become old and spiritually ossified, they cannot change. But change will come to the JW organization, and when it does, these old men will be seen for what they really are -- exploiters of the sheep.”

This really got me thinking.

“These old men will be seen for what they really are.” Seen as such by whom? The world? The Witness community itself?

Now, I know, it’s a somewhat idle pastime, speculating upon how the current, wholly unsatisfactory and inherently unstable situation regarding the immediate and mid-term future of the WTS might play out. But sometimes, you know I can’t help it.

I think it’s at least a fair bet that the pressures facing the movement, the obvious and pressing need for some enlightened, humanitarian change in doctrine and social policy, set against the current leadership’s stubborn refusal even to consider any such idea, might well lead eventually to a violent schism. One can easily imagine hard-line and moderate camps developing, mutually disfellowshipping each other, fighting over ownership of the assets and money, and of course tragically splitting families and friends along an iron curtain of sectarian division. All too common an experience among committed, religious people, but it would be a complete disaster for the movement.

But, just say, they manage to avoid that? What if enough internal political will and good sense could be found among the ranks to pilot the Organisation through? To prevent a disastrous schism, or a numbers meltdown or a legal catastrophe? What would the surviving Organisation (in ten years maybe) then look like and sound like?

And further than that (and this is the point of my post) what attitude would such a future Watchtower leadership display towards the present-day leadership?

I think this is an interesting area of speculation because, it seems to me, that such a future leadership, if it has managed to survive at all, will of necessity have a very different character to today’s leadership. They will have had to face up to the failed prophecies, taken responsibility for mistakes, apologised to people, cleared up the blood mess, jettisoned shunning and generally done away with the whole exclusivity mindset. I say “will have had to” because I think no stable future is available to them that is not, in essence, of a “mainstreaming” character.

So when they come to comment upon the Organisation in the late 20th Century, and write their histories of the movement – what will they say about Franz, Henschel, Jaracz and the rest?

In previous restospectives, such as when the Rutherford-era people wrote about Russell, and when the Knorr-era people wrote about Rutherford, the tone has always been completely respectful, even if tinged with a kind of amused condescension: “Well, the Brothers back then had some strange ideas, alright. But you can see they were sincere, and that Jehovah blessed them, even though their understanding of things at the time was so wayward and feeble. They couldn’t help it, they were doing the best they could with the “light” that was available” You must have heard sentiments along those lines before.

But will such an attitude be appropriate, or even realistically available to the-then Watchtower leaders? Me, I doubt it. The record of self-serving, cynical, prideful deceptiveness, the stubbornness, the lying, the cover-ups, the sheer idiocy and incompetence of the current lot will be simply too much to deny or gloss over. Damaging information having become so much more available and ubiquitous, they simply won’t have the option of airbrushing the current GB into a state of holiness.

What, then?

Well, it seems a fair guess to me that the future leadership, for pragmatic reasons as much as anything else, might simply take a diametrically opposite approach.

I think there’s every chance that a future Watchtower leadership might thoroughly denounce the current crowd as an aberration. An unchristian, uncaring totally apostate and wicked regime that was allowed – for whatever reason – to gain control of Jehovah’s organisation for a period of time. I’m sure there are no end of possible “scripture/prophecy fulfilment” scenarios that could be used in such a process.

I put this forward to you as a serious idea.

So, who’ d be a current GB member? The whole thing is falling apart around your ears, there seems no way out of the mess, and, worse than that, even after you’re dead, your name and reputation are going to be vilified, AMONG YOUR OWN COMMUNITY. Well, as I said, a good chance, I reckon.

So that’s why, today, I managed to feel sorry for the current GB, just for a while.

Duncan.

8

My Mum, Demons, The Watchtower & MGM

by Duncan in

jw
friends

a couple of years ago, on the old h2o, i posted something called my demon story which told a story, back in the seventies, of a supposed demon attack on a family known to me.

the point of the story was in fact that the only demons involved were self-supplied from this particular sisters hysterical, over-active imagination.. during the course of that story, i said.

i dont think even at my most faithful and zealous that i ever took the demon stories seriously.

Duncan

E-man

Tug Wilson is a name that means nothing to me. We had a real character in our Congregation called Fred Wilson - any good? Was he known elsewhere by a nickname?

Hillary

Thanks for your memories. You are right, of course. Both my folks are warm-hearted wonderful people. Both pretty old and frail now, I'm certain they have no conception of just how cold and heartless the dub worldview ("You're all gonna die!") really is. They're just victims.

regards

Duncan.

8

My Mum, Demons, The Watchtower & MGM

by Duncan in

jw
friends

a couple of years ago, on the old h2o, i posted something called my demon story which told a story, back in the seventies, of a supposed demon attack on a family known to me.

the point of the story was in fact that the only demons involved were self-supplied from this particular sisters hysterical, over-active imagination.. during the course of that story, i said.

i dont think even at my most faithful and zealous that i ever took the demon stories seriously.

Duncan

A couple of years ago, on the old H2O, I posted something called “My Demon Story” which told a story, back in the seventies, of a supposed demon attack on a family known to me. The point of the story was in fact that the only demons involved were self-supplied from this particular sister’s hysterical, over-active imagination.

During the course of that story, I said

I don’t think – even at my most faithful and zealous – that I ever took the Demon stories seriously. It always sounded like medieval, witchcraft, mumbo-jumbo nonsense that would embarrass any moderately intelligent modern man. Inside the Borg or out, I have never changed that view.

I came across that story in my files and re-read it the other day, and it occurred to me that the above disclaimer was not actually completely true. There indeed WAS a time I totally believed in The Demons, and I must have been six or seven at the time. Musing on that time of my life led me to write this post.

A bit of background. . I was born into a large (loads of kids) Irish-Catholic family, living in London, re-housed out to one of the London-satellite New Towns that had sprung up in the 50’s when they demolished the old run-down tenement slums we had been living in.

Pretty much the moment we were installed in the new house (Inside toilet! A bathroom! A garden! Three whole separate bedrooms!) my mum got doorstepped and led us all into The Truth. I was 4 or 5 year old, and so can’t really much remember a time before we were Witnesses.

So, there I was, growing up on this rich spiritual diet of wholesome and upbuilding Bible truths (there really should be some special type font for irony). Anyway, Demon stories figured just as large in our household as any other JW family, I guess. Perhaps more. My mum (Catholic background, here?) certainly made plenty of reference to them in teaching us kids, that’s for sure. I think now that the whole idea of Satan and the Demons as an ever-active, ever-present threat in one’s everyday life is certainly stronger in the Witness oral tradition than you would ever guess at just by reading the literature.

And looking back now, it seems to me that, whereas I had some notion of Jehovah-and-Jesus being good and kind and so on, they were much less distinct and powerful figures to me than the terrifying, ever-lurking Satan-and-theDemons, who were ready to gobble you up any time you did (or thought about doing!) something wrong or wicked. And, of course, doing and thinking about wrong stuff is pretty much what a six year old boy does best.

We were pretty poor. Mum didn’t work, Dad had a lowest-rung-of-the-ladder manual job, worked overtime, weekends, never saw him. And piles of kids to feed. One of the ways my folks saved money was on lightbulbs. There weren’t any, upstairs, except a single dim bulb on the landing, which was supposed to do for all the bedrooms, too. Pretty dark place, upstairs was. Pretty scary to me. Which is significant because:

One of the things my mum would do to keep order over her unruly and numerous brood (Dad was at work) was, whenever any strife broke out, she would single out the trouble-maker and banish the offending child to his/her bedroom. This tactic just hadn’t been available in the London 2-room flat.

I was at the younger end of the family (second-youngest) and to this day, I must admit I have never discussed this with any of the others, but this business of being sent out from the noisy, well-lit, reassuring crowdedness of the living-room into the dark, quiet, cold isolation of an upstairs bedroom just terrified the shit out of me.

I remember sitting on the top step, too scared to enter the darkness of the bedroom, eyes shut, hands over ears, sitting under the single bulb, just waiting for The Demons to come and get me. I knew they were there. If I kept my eyes shut and didn’t see them, I was safe.

And (now we’re sort of getting to the point of this post) there’s more: I knew exactly what a demon looked like. In my head was a personal vision of a Demon, very specific and detailed:

Short in size, strange clothes, horrible, jerky movements, and a gravely scary voice.

Now, here I am , a safe and secure 47-year old man, happy, grounded and stable. I wish I could reach back in time and do something for that frightened little boy on the top step with his personal vision of hell.

I never told my mum about the Demons at the top of the stairs, or like I said, any of my brothers and sisters. I guess I was frightened they’d laugh or something.

Now here’s the strange thing: Fast forward 20 years. I’m all grown up, out of the Truth, with two young kids of my own. It’s Christmas day and we’re watching The Wizard of Oz on TV. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it before.

Suddenly, I see on screen a sight which - just for a second - makes my blood run cold. A deep chord touched. And then, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. But a ghost has just been laid.

It seems my vision of a Demon which so troubled my active seven-year-old imagination was in fact, nothing other than - - - The Lollipop Kids from Munchkin land. The look, the size, jerky movements, the voice – the whole thing. (Next time you see it, you’ll see what I mean)

I must have seen that film as a VERY young child, too young to remember it consciously, but clearly it left enough of an impression on me and my sub-conscious. I must have been very scared by the Munchkins, and built the whole experience into my personal image of Satan and his Demons.

How many people get the chance, later in life as an adult, to confront and face down their own personal demons from their childhood? I did, that Christmas day.

Well, okay, “confront and face down” is a bit too strong, I admit. But to understand, to remember and then lay it aside, that’s a great thing. Cathartic, is that the word?

Now, my mum’s not a monster. She didn’t know about the Demons in my seven-year-old head. She was just (still is) a product of the Watchtower, she taught us the best she knew how. She’s no more to blame than MGM is for making Oz.

I tell the story just to reflect on the rich mix of things here. The JW upbringing, the demon-obsessed dub mindset, my young imagination, our lack of light bulbs, the Munchkins. What a recipe!

Duncan

Trying his best to bring up his kids in a happy, demon-free household, but who can ever get inside their heads ?

62

How Long A JW ( Baptised )?

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

i frequently read on this board that somebody has 'been a jw for over 25 years' and then learn that they are in fact 25 years and three days old.. i am very easily confused, in fact i actually got inside a car of similar color to my own recently and spent at least five minutes with a furrowed brow trying to force my car key into its ignition, fortunately, i realised my error before i was arrested.

so, just to humor me, can you all post how long you were/are baptised jw's?.

thank you -- hs.

Duncan

Born 1954
Mum dubbed on the doorstep 1960
Mum baptised 1961, Dad domino-effect-baptised 1968
Me, patform parts from 1962, baptised 1969, pioneer from 1970
MS 1973
Public Talks 1975 - nods and winks about "eldership potential" but never made it, because:
Last field service 1977, deleted as MS
Last meeting 1980
JC for "Apostasy" 1981 - survived.

Didn't give JW's much of a thought for almost 20 years until July 1999
when, on an idle whim one slow afternoon in the office, I put "Jehovah" into a search engine, and was overwhelmed with all the stuff I found. Ended up posting on H2O, then here.

So, 2001 was sort of significant for me in that I have now finally been "out" as long as I was "in".

Happy New Year to all.

Duncan.

6

Best Post Of 2001. Vote now.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

the post of 2001 that gave me the most pleasure, was this one by duncan: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=3405&site=3.

englishman.. bring on the dancing girls!

Duncan

E-man thanks!

I remember you saying that you liked that one when I first posted it on the old H2O. You're very generous.

Okay my votes. (can't keep it to one, so: best-three posts)

Hilary_Step's "last words" thread.

E-man, your very own "Blown-up Witness" post.

and AlanF's thread "You-Know-Esque Science"

Sorry, if I was better at this, (or could be arsed to find out properly) I would post the links.

Happy New Year

Duncan.