Posts by effe

31

DA Letter Based on the "Blood Issue"

by watson in

a must read.

grab a cup of coffee, it's lengthy.. http://newsblaze.com/story/20081209054218zzzz.nb/topstory.html.

from a "non apostate" news board..

effe

Hi Vinny, I just read your letter and I'm impressed! You've managed to write down all of the most valuable arguments against the position on blood from the Society. I'm the webmaster of www.bloedkwestie.info (bloedkwestie means blood issue in dutch). It's a dutch, english and soon to be spanish website, and I was wondering if it was okay with you to put this letter on my website and translate it in dutch as well? Thanks for your answer, Effe

1

Child Abuse Policy

by effe in

hello all, i'm looking for a full picture of the (written) child abuse policy of the watchtower.

can anyone direct me to online boe letters about the policy or other related articles in the wt?

thanks,effe

effe

Hello all, I'm looking for a full picture of the (written) child abuse policy of the Watchtower. Can anyone direct me to online BOE letters about the policy or other related articles in the WT? Thanks, Effe

French WT Library 2006 Download Link

by effe in

hello all, for anyone that is interested in the french version of the wt library 2006 (i don't know why, but i needed it http://z13.zupload.com/download.php?file=getfile&filepath=64477 at your service,effe ps: copy the url in address-line of your browser, otherwise it won't work.

effe

Hello all,

For anyone that is interested in the French version of the WT Library 2006 (I don't know why, but I needed it) here's a downloadlink tot an ISO file of that CD. http://z13.zupload.com/download.php?file=getfile&filepath=64477 At your service, Effe PS: copy the URL in address-line of your browser, otherwise it won't work.

48

I Was in a Bad Collision

by Amazing in

jw
friends

last night, i was struck nearly head-on by a person attempting a left turn as i passed through the intersection.

i was injured, as well as the other driver.

the police told me that he broke his arm, and was in shock.

effe

Well, you see what happens to you when you leave Jehovah's organization? You lost your protection...

Sorry, I just couldn't resist saying that Seriously: I hope you will be on your feet soon. The bruising after an accident takes some healing, but I'm sure you'll be fine. Glad to hear that you survived. Take it easy and take care. Greetings, Effe

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

effe

I read this whole thread and I see that 3W, among other things, keeps defending the argument about heavier and more deadly earthquakes from 1914 until now, compared to the period before 1914. Although AlanF has made it painfully clear that such an "argument" is completely rubbish according to the most specific available data today, it still strikes me that 3W is ready to use the argument when the WT has already abandoned it for about 4 years!! They admit that an increase of number or power is required. Why 3W, are you even willing to defend something that doesn't need to be defended anymore? Does that show how much influence the WT has over you, that you can't even accept new light? Your statistics don't mean anything, not only because you're proven grossly wrong by some posters here (specially AlanF), but they also don't mean a thing to the WTS anymore, because no matter how foolish they are at some reasonings, they do accept that there is no increase in number or power. For your information and entertainment:

*** g02 3/22 p. 9 Earthquakes, Bible Prophecy, and You ***
Earthquakes,
Bible Prophecy, and You
BEFORE his death, Jesus foretold events and situations that would give evidence that this world had entered "the conclusion of the system of things." That period, he said, would be marked by such things as pestilences, food shortages, and large-scale warfare. He also mentioned "great earthquakes" that would occur "in one place after another." (Matthew 24:3, 7; Luke 21:10, 11) Was Jesus referring to our day?
Many say no. They assert that the number of earthquakes has not substantially increased in recent decades. In fact, the U.S. National Earthquake Information Center reports that earthquakes of 7.0 magnitude and greater remained "fairly constant" throughout the 20th century.
Note, though, that the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy does not require an increase in the number or power of earthquakes. All Jesus said was that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another. Furthermore, he stated that these events would mark the "beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:8) Distress is measured, not by the number of earthquakes or how they rate on the Richter scale, but by the effect that they have upon people.
Earthquakes have indeed caused much distress in our day. In fact, during the 20th century, millions have been killed or left homeless by these disasters. Experts say that many of these deaths could have been prevented. "In developing countries," reports BBC News, "building regulations frequently take second place to the demands for cheap, quickly built housing to meet the needs of rapid urbanisation." Commenting on two recent tragedies, Ben Wisner, an expert in urban disasters, states: "It wasn’t earthquakes that killed these people. It was a combination of human error, indifference, corruption, and greed."
Yes, sometimes the deadliest factors in an earthquake are human selfishness and negligence. Interestingly, such qualities come to the fore in another Bible prophecy concerning "the last days" of this system. During that time, the Bible states, people would be "self-centered, lovers of money," and "callous." (2 Timothy 3:1-5, The Amplified Bible) Along with Jesus’ words regarding the conclusion of the system of things, this prophecy provides clear evidence that we are nearing the time when God will bring relief to distressed humanity from all present causes of pain and suffering—including great earthquakes.—Psalm 37:11.
Would you like to learn more about this Bible-based hope? Contact Jehovah’s Witnesses in your area, or write to the appropriate address on page 5.
[Footnote]

Some say that any reports of an increase in the number of earthquakes are simply due to advances in technology, which enable more seismic events to be detected. By the way: I'm not even going to comment on the foolish "new argumentation" about earthquakes ("All Jesus said was that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another." DUH!!!) Greetings, Effe

4

607 website - part 4

by Jeffro in

part 4 in the series

part 1: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118445/2082380/post.ashx#2082380.

part 2: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118507/2083398/post.ashx#2083398.

effe

Thanks again Jeffro, for your excellent and very interesting replies to the 607-website. By doing so, you're putting all the refutations that are scattered throughout some excellent threads on this forum together. This will come in handy to many of us. I'm sure it will get his place in the "Best of..." section on this forum (Ladylee...pay attention!!) Effe

16

607 website - part 1

by Jeffro in

adherents of jw dogma are boastful of a new website (http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607) which they claim has "irrefutable" proof for their 607 doctrine.

it is full of problems, and i will indicate these section by section, as time permits.. why is 607bce an important date to jehovah's witnesses.

the introduction paints jws as the persecuted underdog.

effe

I think I'm going to like this serie!! Thanks jeffro for all your work uptill now and hope to see more of you in the near future on this subject. Effe

156

Thirdwitness -- An Agent of the Governing Body?

by AlanF in

thirdwitness -- an agent of the governing body?

this evening i was talking with an old friend about recent postings on this forum by jw defenders.

we concluded that something unusual is going on.

effe

Don't believe everything you hear! 3rdW is able to post as much as scholar does - he simply chooses not to right now. Put the blame where it lies - with him, not with who gets restricted and why.

Hi Ozziepost, I'm sorry, I took his word for it, for he said he wasn't able to post anymore. My post was just intended to show that his presence here is in some way helpfull. I'm currently an inactive JW and fairly new to the whole 587/607 debate. I understand that some find him annoying for not answering questions (truthfully), but I think his behaviour just shows how minds of JW's work. Some three years ago I was exactly the same, I defended everything, no matter how silly 'arguments' I had to use or how many solid arguments I had to put aside. I just defended everything, until I realized that some things can't be defended. Although I already no longer believed in 1914 I just now learned to a fuller degree how wrong the basis for this date is. I want to thank Alan and Leolaila and all others that made great contributions to the threads in question. Just recently I began to search the archives of this forum and they already posted so much on this subject. It's great that you guys will still make the effort to make it all a bit clearer. But also thanks to Scholar and Thirdwitness, because they are really the ones that are showing that 607 is a bunch of crap. And that's exactly why I posted my earlier message. Glad to see that 3W can still post here and thank you for pointing out that he's lying again. Effe

156

Thirdwitness -- An Agent of the Governing Body?

by AlanF in

thirdwitness -- an agent of the governing body?

this evening i was talking with an old friend about recent postings on this forum by jw defenders.

we concluded that something unusual is going on.

effe

ThirdWitness wrote the following on Al's board:

"Do you know how hard it is to get restricted at JWD. You can cuss people, call people idiot, moron, retard, stupid, liar, and any other name you like (Believe me I know. I have been called about every name in the book over there.) You can leave any link you like to anything you like, you can cut copy and paste whatever you desire, and teach anything under the sun but there is one thing you better not do. Defend JWs against the holy trinity of the apostates: 607, the NGO , and the child abuse policy. This seems to be about the only way to get restricted. Of course I copied and pasted information from our articles here and from my blog site. The last one I posted was about the 70 years of serving Babylon and of desolation. Here is what I have been told by the forum administrator. You once again are abusing your posting privileges by peppering the board with "cut & pastes" - just yesterday you started a thread with a prior 'chapter' of the work that you are simply lifting from one site and placing on the board. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118142/1.ashx Your posting 'privileges' are being restricted so that your 'allowed' posts may be used wisely in proper discussion with other posters on other threads. This thread is locked. Since I cannot post there at this time I wrote the administrator and said: Let me get this straight, you are limiting my posting priviledges because I copy and pasted my own material....I wonder if AlanF or Leo would have limited privileges if they copied and pasted there own material. Maybe if I start calling people idiots, retards, morons,liars in big bold letter etc I can regain my posting privileges. I wonder if I cut and pasted material against JWs if that would be alright? What a joke. Such hypocrisy. Yes, they have been thoroughly exposed. Not only concerning their misleading lies about 607, NGO , and Child Abuse, but as truth seekers. Most are not as is apparent from my being restricted. There is a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth going on over there right now because of their failure in disproving 607 as well as our articles on the NGO and my blog on the child abuse policy of JWs. You would think that as many apostates as there are on that site that they would be able to present some logical arguments but it is the same old stuff that we always here along with the same old tactics used, name calling, rhetoric, and statements made as if they were true supported by no facts or scriptures. Here is what one person said after I told someone who brought up an off topic subject. I said: If you will contact JWs in your area you can find out the answers for what you bring up. Or consult the WT publications which will explain them by means of the Bible. They replied:...and it`s SHIT like THIS that makes me wanna SCREAM and YELL and knock down everything within a one-mile-radius, ... . You condescending, little selfrighteous prick! ... I think you should get the hell away from this board, and go back to the KH . Do you think this person received a public warning and was restricted from posting because the guidelines say: please avoid: 1. Insulting, threatening or provoking language Of course not. It was me who was reprimanded. And many do not know I have been restricted and cannot answer their questions. What do you think they will say? Thirdwitness abandoned ship because he could not answer our questions. Well, I know for a fact that many read here because they posted the latest writings on the summary of the 40 year desolation of Egypt arguments. I wonder if anyone at that site will have the guts to copy and paste what I have written here further exposing them in their attempt at silencing me and defenders of JWs. Lurkers take note at the tactics of apostates. They are not truth seekers as they pretend. They are misleading and deceitful and have but one agenda: to discredit JWs and mislead as many as possible away from the truth. They have been exposed for what you really are."

Although I can't suppress a smile when he says "There is a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth going on over there right now because of their failure in disproving 607 as well as our articles on the NGO and my blog on the child abuse policy of JWs" I kinda have to agree with him. I don't understand why his posting privileges where taken away from him. I know he pasted a large piece of that particular website again, but it's his own material. I know that he's the one who wrote it. If the the article was maintained on this website, I'm sure some posters would have torn it to pieces just like almost all other "arguments" 3W brought to this board. And, I for one, really enjoyed the thread about Egypt/Tyre. It showed the utter dishonesty in the writings of 3W and I believe many, many JW lurkers have seen this. I know I'm breaking posting guidelines with this post, for I realize that the owner of the board can make his own descisions. I just hope you will reconsider your position and give 3W his posting privileges back, because, with Scholar, he's one of the most great dangers to the WTS...some lurkers will see the dishonesty that comes forth from absolute loyalty to an earthly organisation. In that regard 3W's attendance to this forum is much needed! Effe

601

For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled in

just got this link sent to me by my sister in law and i just keeping staring at it trying to decide where to start.

i know that arguing with a jw is like throwing miracle wheat in the wind...but i want a comeback!!!

http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm

effe

Well, how about this nicely re-written appendix G from the pro-607 site which 3W is promoting (it's not online yet):

There are many tactics apostates use to explain-away the 40 years for Egypt and the 70 years for Tyre. Here are some of them:

Contradict yourself

Nebuchadnezzar's desolation of Egypt took place when he brought more exiles to Babylon in his 23rd year not in his 37th year.

Apart from contradicting their own secular history, and the problem of Neb's siege of Tyre lasting many years, this attempt to explain the problem away contradicts the Bible.

Their argument demands that Egypt was desolated by Nebuchadnezzar, but still powerful enough (and inhabited) so that King Neb returned many years later and attacked it a second time. The Bible disagrees, and specifically says that there "will not pass through it the foot of earthling man" for a full 40 years. Obviously, their desperate attempt to explain away the problem is wrong. See our chart to see how this looks on a time-line.

Additionally, according to them Ezekiel said (talking of the future) that Egypt would be given to Babylon. Even though, according to this explanation, it already had been and was, in fact, desolated already.

Needless to say, its a poor patchwork and an obvious attempt to explain away a critical problem.

Use a logical fallacy

In another prophecy about Tyre Ezekiel said Tyre would never be rebuilt but it was, therefore since the Tyre prophecy is figurative then the Egypt prophecy must be figurative.

First of all, the 70 year prophecy for Tyre is not figurative. Ancient Tyre was never rebuilt. The prophecy in Ezekiel says:

"...they will certainly spoil your resources and plunder your sales goods, and tear down your walls, and your desirable houses they will pull down. And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water. And I will cause the turmoil of your singing to cease, and the very sound of your harps will be heard no more. And I will make you a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what you will become. Never will you be rebuilt; for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken".

This part of the prophecy was indeed fulfilled in in a very literal way in two stagess. First, King Neb attacked the city as Ezekiel predicted. Yet that was only the beginning of Tyre's downfall. The prophecy had its complete fulfillment when Alexander the Great pitched the mainland city into the sea to build a causeway to the island part of the city before defeating that. The ancient city and Kingdom of Tyre was never rebuilt, and indeed did become a fishing village "a drying yard for dragnets".

However, in the initial fulfillment of this prophecy Nebuchadnezzar attacked the city and it was indeed "forgotten" for 70 years as Jehovah revealed through the prophet Isaiah. These are all literal - not figurative - events.

Yet what does this have to do with Egypt? Nothing. It is faulty reasoning to say of two totally unrelated subjects without any connection, 'Since this is figurative then that must also be figurative.' Even if we assume that Ezekiel's Tyre prophecy is figurative, it must be shown that this is somehow connected to the Egypt prophecy and that it must also be figurative. There is no connection except that both prophecies were made by Ezekiel.

Is it reasonable to conclude that all prophecies in the Bible are figurative because Ezekiel's Tyre prophecy is figurative (when we know it was not)? Do we assume that all prophecies of Ezekiel are figurative because the Tyre prophecy is figurative? Or do we just pick-and-choose whatever prophecy or time-period in the Bible doesn't fit with secular chronology and declare "this is figurative"?

Apparently some people do. How convenient for 587 promoters that they are allowed to do that.

Make something up

Jehovah told Jonah to tell Nineveh that it would be overthrown but when Nineveh repented he did not carry it out so likewise Egypt.

The Bible goes into detail in the story of Jonah and explains exactly how the king of Nineveh and his subjects repented, thus Jehovah spared them. Do we have such details of Egypt's repentance anywhere in the Bible? Are we told how Pharoah and his crowd repented in sackcloth and ashes when they heard of their coming destruction? Surely such a huge act of repentance by one of the most notoriously pagan nations in history would have been recorded in the Bible as an example for all? Why was such an incredible event never mentioned in the Bible not even once? Even traditional Jewish history records no such event, nor do Jewish historians such as Josephus.

Furthermore, how about in the secular evidence? Do we have available the ancient fragments describing to us how Pharaoh and his crowd left his pagan gods and turned to the worship of Jehovah? Why it is difficult to even answer this point without laughing? Probably because it is nonsense concocted by a 587 promoter on an Internet message board.

Use a logical fallacy: Argument from ignorance

There is no secular evidence that gives any indication that Egypt was desolated during this time period.

Actually, there is. Although there is very little secular evidence about Egypt during this time, It is not surprising that the nation of Egypt itself would fail to record such a defeat. After all, they did not record the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt either. Does that mean the exodus never happened?

However the Babylonians did record this defeat upon Egypt. The evidence shows that just two years after the final part of the prophecy against Egypt an attack was made by Neb against Egypt. The Babylonian chronicle known as BM 33041 says: "In the thirty-seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the country of Babylon, he went to Mitzraim (Egypt) to make war. Amasis, king of Egypt, collected [his army], and marched and spread abroad..."

Fortunately for 587 proponents the rest of the chronicle is badly damaged and the extent of the defeat of Egypt cannot be read. It would certainly be interesting to read if historians had available the entire inscription. There is a good possibility that we would have the further proof. However, the part of the chronicle that can be deciphered is enough to prove that a campaign by Neb against Egypt did take place right on time just after Ezekiel prophesied it. Just a coincidence? Hardly. Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled right on time.

Logical fallacy: If I don't know how it can be done, then it can't be done

There is no way that Babylon could have displaced millions of Egytians.

On the contrary, this is what Babylon was known to do. They had experience at displacing entire nations. This even happened to Judah where millions were killed and displaced by Babylon. The surrounding nations also suffered this fate.

Yes, there is proof positive that Babylon could and did exile entire nations from their homeland. On top of this, the all powerful Jehovah prophesied it and could make it so. What a straw grasping argument that goes against Jehovah's power and the actual nature of Nebuchadnezzar to exile people from their land!

My argument isn't wrong, the evidence is wrong!

Ezekiel was a false prophet and neither the Tyre prophecy nor the Egypt prophecy came true.

This argument is made by the ones that realize that if Ezekiel's prophecy is accurate then 587 is wrong. So rather than being dishonest and pretending that the Bible supports 587 they come right out and tell you that the Bible is wrong on this.

One well known leading opposer of 607 named Allan boldly declared: "Ezekiel demonstrably falsely prophesied about the ultimate rebuilding of Tyre, and all of his other prophecies are called into question...The simple fact is that Ezekiel prophesied falsely, and therefore his words cannot be taken as gospel." In making such an admission he admits that he is well aware that the Bible does not support 587 at all and can only support 607.

Make something up #2

Jehovah called off the desolation of Egypt because Nebuchadnezzar went too far in his harsh treatment of Judah thus God decided not to give Neb the spoils of Egypt.

How can this be the case? The final part of Ezekiel's prophecy was given about 17 years after Neb desolated Jerusalem, the 27th year of Ezekiel's exile. Therefore Jehovah had already seen and and for a fact knew exactly the treatment that Neb had measured out to Judah when he made the prophecy.

Do we imagine that Jehovah had temporary amnesia and thus prophesied that Neb would desolate Egypt and get much booty? Then Jehovah's memory returned so that he said, 'Nevermind. I just remembered what Neb did to my people in presumptuously going beyond what I wanted him to do. Scratch that last prophecy about Egypt's desolation.' The implications are ridiculous.

Besides, why did the prophets forget to mention this change-of-heart? Why is it not mentioned in the Bible even once? Why is the prophecy of 40 years recorded, but not the fact it didn't happen?

Furthermore, is it not awfully convenient to concoct these "explanations" to explain away whatever it is that contradicts your argument? How dishonest to say "oh, yeah the Bible did say that would happen, but it disagrees with my beliefs, therefore it mustn't have actually happened for some reason", and then go forth to make up that reason in your head and present it as fact.

if one is going to believe such things, why bother even reading what the Bible says at all, why not just make it all up and believe whatever you want?

Contradict yourself

40 years is not literal. 40 is symbolic of many years.

If that is the case then the Bible should provide examples of 40 year or day prophecies that turned out to be symbolic and not literally 40 years or days. And then there should be some viable reason, some proof that the symbolism should be applied in the case of Egypt's desolation. What do we find?

Some defenders of 587 have tried to use the 40 years the Israelites wandered in the wilderness, the raining of 40 days and 40 nights at the time of the flood, Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness, and so forth as proof that 40 can be symbolic of many. That's right - all these events covered 40 years or 40 days literally, not figuratively!

By using these examples they have done nothing more than disprove their own argument of a figurative 40 year desolation. There is not a single Bible precedent for assigning the 40 year desolation of Egypt as figurative. Doing that is literally without merit. On the contrary, every single 40-day or 40-year period in the Bible is shown to be literal. Amazing!

It seems that some people are so obsessed with discrediting Jehovah's Witnesses that they would sooner make the unreasonable and unscriptural arguments presented above than admit to clear logic and scripture. These persons stubbornly refuse to admit that secular chronology is wrong, and that the Bible is right. For anyone who believes the Bible, the year of 607 BCE is the only possible date for the destruction of Jerusalem - unless you want to entertain the "explanations" above, of course.

Amazing how somebody can get his assed whooped all over the place without giving honest answers to the "whoopers" and then claim victory on the subject and then present the whole discussion as above...

Provided for your entertainment en reading pleasure...

Greetz,
Effe