Posts by kifoy

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

Narkissos:
On top of that the addition of bracketed "[(an)other]"s where the idea is implied(hence where other Bibles may use it without brackets/italics) serves as a justification for its addition in more controversial places, e.g. Colossians 1:15ff.
Never forget that the NWT is not primarily meant to be "simply read" as any other Bible but to serve as a material store for self-referential argument. From this perspective it makes a lot of sense.

Yes, in the Colossians the same has happened to the brackets in the Norwegian translation. I have got the Kingdom Interlinear here, and it is really easy to see that the word "another" gives a different meaning to this verses.

Of course this use of brackets is bound to be inconsistent. If everyEnglish/Norwegian word that has no formal equivalent in either Hebrew or Greek had to be marked out this way, several brackets would be needed in every sentence.
However it's quite interesting to see that such markers have indeed been lost in the process of translation from English to other languages...

Yes, of course. That's translation and languages in a nutshell. But a conscientious translator would not use words that changed the meaning of the text, would he?
And that's also why it is even more difficult to understand how they could see it as a smart move to use English as the "basic" language for other translations, and "unctitically" also translate the bracketed words (I don't even know if they checked other manuscript in the process...)

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

What exactly does the "another" add? Doesn't it mean almost the same thing? Never has a man spoken like this -- of course any other man would be "another man" from Jesus. The difference is one of emphasis that seems to, at least, rule out one implication about Jesus himself: If no man has ever spoken like this, maybe Jesus isn't a man. Not that this is necessarily an implication in the Greek text itself (I'm not sure if it is), but it could read that way in English. So adding "another" doesn't change anything referentially, but it might preclude a reading that could be suggestive of Christ's deity.

Yes, the Norwegian text with and without the word "annet" (another), brings up exactly the same issue. The Norwegian text without the word "annet", does not have to mean that Jesus was not a man, but it can be understood that way. So in order to keep the "complete sense" of the original texts, they put in [another], so it will not be misunderstood...

So the witnesses have got a pre-interpreted Bible, if it is possible to say it that way.
Well, I guess they're used to it.

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

OTWO:
Someone just goofed up on the brackets. That wouldn't happen if their works were "inspired." God would make sure the brackets highlighted the added words.

Good point. God would have made sure of a lot of things... He is after all the "Preserver of his Word" (Insight p. 313)...

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

Thank you, Leolaia. That was interesting.

Just wanted to quote the_classicist:

I would suspect, though, and you would know more about this than me, that in other countries where there are less JWs, the NWT is translated directly from English. Y'know this proves two things: 1) JWs aren't as concerned about true biblical scholarship as they seem, and 2) The WT is an Anglophone and American religion.

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

WTWizard
They did all the dirty work in tampering with the Bible in English.

A bad translation of a bad translation would make it the most INaccurate translation ever made, I guess...

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

Kifoy, did you know they "inserted" the name Jehovah 237 times in the Greek Scriptures without ANY manuscript support in the world?

Yes, oompa. I know.

I would have rather believed God cared enough to keep his Word intact, protected from those who would want to change or corrupt it.....WT says he did not...............

Yes, you're spot on! I have been asking the same question myself.

Why can we trust the Bible, that is has been preserved? Jehovah has preserved it:

Insight p. 313:
All credit and thanksgiving for the Bible’s survival in view of such violent opposition is due Jehovah, the Preserver of his Word

But if Jehovah really has looked after his Word, how did it happen that his name dissapeared? If it is ONE thing I would think of, that would be of utterly importance for Jehovah to preserve, it would be his name, right? The most important thing: His name.

So why did he not preserve his name, but let it dissapear? If he let his own name dissapear, can we really trust the rest of the Bible? No matter how you look at it, something does not make sense here.

I have 6 pages of research on this if you want it.....oompa

Yes. That would be great!
Thanks!

But back "on topic":
Can anyone tell if the brackets were lost also in other translations of the NWT?

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

lost-in-time
"original text" = English text!

All NWTranslations is based on English text, and in many languages (slavic, for ex.) occasionally need an extra word to complete sense from English.

Simmilar, English text occasionally need an extra word to complete sense from Hebrew or Greek. Usually, it is not same words in both cases.

Welcome to the forum, lost-in-time!

No. The "original text" here, as it is written in Norwegian, can never be understood as the original English text. The word in the Norwegian explanation is "grunntekst". This word's only meaning in this context, is the Greek, Latin, Hebrew (and other) manuscripts that is the basis for all Bible translators. I wish I knew more about this, but this is as good as I can describe it.

This explanation, as it is written, has no connection with the English text. At all. On the contrary it gives the impression (as I see it) that the words enclosed by brackets are there to complete the sense from the "original" manuscripts. Not to complete the sense in English.

But in the Norwegian NWT itself, the brackets are removed, and the inserted words appear to be "original", which they are not.
They were put there to "make sense" in the English text. And this was obviously not taken into proper consideration when they used this text to translate into Norwegian.

That's why I feel fooled.

I hope this was understandable

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

Yes, it is, isn't it?

I showed what I had found to a friend of mine (xjw), and he told me that he always wondered about this too. Why he could not find any brackets even if there was an explanation in the back telling there should be.

Are ALL foreign-language NWTs really translated from English?
How is it possible to make "the most accurate translation" in X number of languages this way?

I already know the answer, but still...

41

The (missing) brackets in the NWT

by kifoy in

it was a great day, that convention day they announced that the new world translation now was to be released in the norwegian language.

first the greek scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole bible.

finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

kifoy

It was a great day, that convention day they announced that the New World Translation now was to be released in the Norwegian language. First the Greek Scriptures in 1991, and in 1996 the whole Bible. Finally we too were able to read the best translation ever made!

I was all over it from the beginning. And in the back of the Bible (on the 2nd page after the last chapter of Revelation), I found a small text with some explanations. The same explanations can be found also in the English NWT, but the Norwegian text is less extensive, as it only contains these small paragraphs:
- Capital letters (where English needs to separate "you" and "you", Norwegian needs to separate "theirs" and "yours")
- Brackets/double brackets
- Accentuation marks

It was the second paragraph that really puzzled me. The brackets. In the English NWT the explanation says:

BRACKETS: Single brackets [ ] enclose words inserted to complete the sense in the English text.

The Norwegian text do not say exaclty the same, but says something like this:

BRACKETS: Single brackets [ ] enclose words inserted to reproduce the sense from the "original text" more complete in the Norwegian text.

(* I don't know the correct English word or term for the "reconstructed original texts". In Norwegian: grundtekst; German: Grundtext)

But no matter how thoroughly I looked through my NWT, I could not find one single bracket. I found a couple of double brackets, but no single bracket. Nothing. I thought it was strange, but after a while I stopped thinking about it.

It was not until after I left the org. that it hit me. I was looking in the Kingdom Interlinear. And, wow, did I see brackets! They were all over the place! Almost on every page I looked, there was a word enclosed in brackets. But why were they nowhere to be found in my Norwegian translation?

Did they remove the brackets? The Norwegian NWT is indeed a secondary translation, translated from English, not from the "original texts". So they translated from the English text, but failed to notice the brackets?

I'll give you one example (the marked word is the word "inserted to complete the sense in the English text"), John 7:46:

(English NWT): The officers replied: “Never has [another] man spoken like this.”
(Norwegian NWT): Betjentene svarte: «Aldri har noe annet menneske talt på denne måten.»

So you read your English NWT, and understand that something was inserted here, because of the brackets. But when I read my Norwegian NWT, I do not get that understanding at all? I feel really fooled!

Why did they do this? One question is of course if the word should be inserted there in the first place. But when you translate this text to another language, and remove the brackets? Yes, brackets do look stupid in a Bible. But if they felt that way, why didn't they remove the whole word with it?

Did this also happened to other translations of NWT?

5

Wish to contact Leolaia

by EverAStudent in

i am sorry to bother everyone, but i am trying to contact leolaia.

using the forum messages did not seem to work.

if anyone knows leolaia personally, please pass along this contact request: i can be reached at [email protected] there is a matter i would like to discuss privately.. thank you all !.

kifoy

Some people who use a Mac cannot respond to pm's.

Just had to comment on that one. You can respond to PMs from a Mac, but you need to use Firefox.
You can post with Safari, but not send PMs (don't know why it's like that).