Posts by humbled

39

I HAD MY BICYCLE STOLEN!

by Terry in

jw
friends

three months ago i had to stop driving my car.

it wouldn't pass inspection and it would cost about $3k to get it up to par.. well, it's a 98 honda accord with about 179 thousand miles on it, what did i expect?.

.. i decided i would switch to riding a bicycle instead.. it has worked out fairly well.. i put about 10 miles a day on it.

humbled

It is a particular pain to have the thief look you over and still rob you. More personal. Rotten to loose your transportation and have to buy it again. Maeve

47

after reading dozens and dozens of posts and hundreds of comments, it seems to me that a great many people on this forum think that since they figured out ttatt, they must therefore be a highly intelligent and incredibly rational individual.

let me take a moment to congratulate everyone.

its a big step to figure this out - i know.. that said, it doesn't make you a genius!

humbled

Coded Logic,

Forms of logic that I have not learned that you have studied: Epistemology, Inductive Reasoning, Deductive Reasoning, Abductive Reasoning, Instrumental Rationality, Syllogisms, Logical absolutes, and Synthetic and Analytic Distinctions.

But this in no way suggests that I lack what is the first prerequisite of reasonableness or the ability to be logical: having an open mind.

Even when a person doesn't know these things you named, they may yet possess the positive attributes of skepticism that allow for successful navigation in the world of conflicting claims. Naming a Logical Absolute or an Instrumental Rationality is not essential to reasonable thought, is it?

Does my confession of ignorance of logical forms mean I need a lesson how to have an open mind? What? You directed me to the video which featured a lesson in how to have an open mind simply because I do not know the list of words given above? Is that logical?

I am not sure of what to think of this situation. But is it possible that the illusion of superiority can cause one to assume that no uneducated person can have an open mind?

A great hero of mine is an illiterate former slaves named Sojourner Truth whose simple grasp of logic was a powerful instrument in countering the educated voices that believed that blacks were inferior to whites and that women were not deserving of rights equal to men.

By the way, Coded Logic, that was a great video-- everyone in the world should see it--no one needs to go to college to understand what it is saying.

Maeve

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

humbled

Psac,

You say that "Compassion doesn't have anything to do with the Golden Rule per se" ?

Compassion IS the Golden Rule.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is one biblical translation. One's personal experience is the instructor of course. We know what is good for ourselves and are enjoined to consider that this is likewise the same for others. What hurts me will likewise pain them.

The Golden Rule, also translated as "Love thy neighbor as thyself" was well illustrated by Jesus' story of the Good Samaritan. Whether or not the Samaritan had suffered himself at the hands of robbers, we do not know. We do not know whether or not the priest or the levite had ever been beaten. But the story says the Samaritan, when he saw the beaten man, had compassion on him.

The story in Luke 10 both tells us the meaning of the Golden Rule (compassion) and how far it is meant to extend.

But the rule is not concerned with the origins of suffering. It simply relates how we should relate to sufferers.

You may choose to believe that God will at some future date restore the dead who suffered and died. But this much I can see for myself: the world is full of suffering and humans do NOT always respond with compassion to the sufferings of others (again, see the behavior of the priest and the levite in Jesus' illustration). Therefore, suffering on the scale that was manifested by the tsunami is a profligate, callous waste of life if this was God's way of re-hashing a precept that is/was already familiar to most people on earth while He himself disregarded the good example of that god-damnedSamaritan.

If suffering proves the compassions of God and his existence, then I hope I burn in hell.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

humbled

Compassion is universally valued, PSac.

The Golden Rulen in its various wordings among non-christians throughout the ages teaches compassion. Humans realize this all over he earth.

When suffering comes--and you properly say we all face it sooner or later--it does not matter how it comes to us. Humans who have been hurt know that it matters to comfort or help remedy the causes. The Golden Rule is the description of compassion for others. But what evidence is there that God-of-the-Bible invented compassion?

The Bible says that we deserve suffering and death for disobeying God a few thousand years ago. Compassion is a recent development in the Judeo-Christian timeline. But what of the evidence that compassion has been a part of other cultures clear outside the range of Jesus even?

Compassion is hands down the most important thing we have in this world, PSac. But suffering doesn't prove the existence of God.

Maeve

47

The Illusion of Superiority

by Coded Logic in

after reading dozens and dozens of posts and hundreds of comments, it seems to me that a great many people on this forum think that since they figured out ttatt, they must therefore be a highly intelligent and incredibly rational individual.

let me take a moment to congratulate everyone.

its a big step to figure this out - i know.. that said, it doesn't make you a genius!

humbled

Coded Logic,

The problem of knowing the difference between bullshit and solid ground is one that I have had to learn on my own without an education.

It is a dirty process.

Others have found cleaner ways of doing it: there may be enzyme (sp?) markers and other biological metrics that tell the difference between excrement and earth (yes, I now they are related.) But I needed to learn how to measure the differences by picking it up and smelling it. (Note: the process is much easier for me to figure if I see the stuff coming directly out of a verified a**hole!)

I don't have an aptitude for learning forms of logic. I just don't know why. I am fairly intelligent but I have real blank spots in my mind for some forms of argument or debate. However, I was eventually able to find/fight my way out of the cult I was in as have others.

Further sorting out of religious bullshit has been necessary after I was past being a JW. On this board there are discussions that have been relentlessly poundings upon issues. These treads allow us deliberate difficult matters--Good debate must be accessable to all or it is still slight-of-hand to me. Just intellectual bullying. Also there are deep emotional aspects to the subjects that feed into our religious views. The problems we face on leaving the cult are complex.

I am afraid that the board tremendously weakens its hospitality to the wounded who stop in here because--as is often noted--many have not gone to college, have been janitors or house cleaners or window washers or some other low-level worker. We come to the board having found rudimentary ability to discuss things pertaining to TTATT. But Geez! this place is rough and some of us have no money for meds or therapy. We were indoctrinated by a crooked and destructive cult--all in the name of enlightened godly love--I think it is important to take care of each other and not let the board become too elite in its attitudes toward education. Because there are many uneducated people who have become sensitized to anthing that comes out of an perfect a**hole. They are suspicious of the content no matter how logical it seems.

Maeve

p.s. If I ever meta cognition I never knew it.

Also, I don't mean to suggest that ass-holery is restricted by degree of education. We know that equal opportunity extends to all people in that regard.

5

Depression and Faith

by Joe Grundy in

this is only jw (should that be jw.org now?

) related in that it is connected with religious faith which dominates a person's life.

but many similarities, i feel.. i never was a dub, was raised in a 'gospel hall' tradition, have been for many years an agnostic/atheist and am a fairly cynical/suspicious individual as befits an ex-30 year detective.

humbled

Counseling has helped me.

I used to believe that God was watching all the troubles and violence in my family and had a Plan for it all. This slowly caved in over the last few years. But what some might have viewed as strength had its roots in a passivity that slipped quickly into feelings of helplessness and depression.

Broken? Your BIL must get help to realize that his compassion and love make him vulnerable. Who doesn't hurt when the ones you love suffer and die? We all are subject to this breakage, aren't we?

He may have the questions rising from within that many of us have finally spoken out loud about God. And if he is still getting comfort from faith--then I can only say that God didn't answer Job either when he was pressed to the limit. (Ironically the Jews in the Holocaust looked to the book of Job--the man who never got a straight answer from God.)

Is it a comfort to find yourself just a regular unchurched member of suffering humanity? Or is it a greater comfort to believe in God and suffer without understanding God's reason for your suffering? Both are s**t storms.

Strong or not, he should go and TALK--Talk to someone that won't judge him a saint or a sinner for whatever comes out of is mouth.

And glad he could talk to you.

But depression and faith seem to have a real co-dependent relationship with each other-- I found/find it hard to develop a healthy perspective on a life after having thoroughly saturated my thoughts and actions with the ligatures of christian theism for nearly 60 years. All the best to him and to you.

49

My Story: from JW Elder to Born Again Christian to Agnostic

by passwordprotected in

i first posted here on 3rd june 2008. at the time i was an elder, appointed the previous october, i was 36 and i was a born-in.

at the time i'd become disillusioned with the society due to the governing body's letter explaining why the book study in private homes was being abolished.

april 2008 saw me start questioning this decision, privately of course, and this eventually led me to this site, to jwfacts and to many youtube videos, all of which began to errode my faith in the leaders of the organisation.. in july 2008, having discussed my doubts with my wife, i attended the district convention, deciding to give the society one last chance to convince me it was the truth.

humbled

Pwp,

Thanks for telling your story. I recognized much of the outline of my own journey in your writing. It is not a dark world without religion. Not at all.

Maeve

159

An important message from a PRACTICING Jehovah's witness

by Sparks in

jw
friends

hi, i am also a practicing jehovah's witness and very proud of it,to say the very-very least..!

i am a middle-aged man with many decades of being a witness of jehovah god in england.. this important letter is personally to you, just as many of the bible's 88 letters are to be taken personal by you the reader.

i am writing to you to urge you to take stock of your life, think what your future holds for you.

humbled

You are one of Jehovah's Witnesses? You have no idea what you are talking about.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

humbled

PSacramento--

The God-of-the-Bible has always been mute about the purpose of suffering so there can be no understanding it as a Christian.

Not that there aren't plenty of people who try to speak for god--but it falls flat every time.

The only attempt to address this question directly in the bible: Job asks God why suffering was laid on him--himself a righteous man. Job's friends say why God allowed him to suffered. Job didn't buy it. Job never learned anything why he suffered--just this: "God is god, like it or not"

Still, apologists and theologians put words in god's mouth to make up for His silence. Even Jesus tried hard to show a friendlier face to sufferers. He may have had the same questions many of us have. But it is undeniable that 'My God, my God , why have you forsaken me?" is part of his story after all.

That said, PSac, I do use Jesus as my model of a human reaching out to other humans who suffer. Without the dubious overlays of doctrines, he showed me how to think about and treat others in this world. But he is no more and no less a savior than you or I should be--as in the story told of the Good Samaritan. So I respect Jesus profoundly but I have no reason to believe God took care of Jesus or God will take care of me.

Defender of truth--I will as best I can tell her of your compassion for her loss. And i am sorry for yours as well. It is not strange that we have a some sense of connection in times of loss--it is worth our time to stop and say the simple words, I am sorry for your loss. even if there is nothing more to say.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

humbled

What if a person cannot enjoy their life?--great question.

On my way to my doctor's I stopped to see my friend who is living this question.

Not three weeks past her 18 year old son was obliterated in a car crash. Alcohol involved.

She has other children, but there is much about this son's death that has shaken her in a fundamental way. She asks: what is the reason to live? Why did I have children?

We have talked before about faith, religion. She was/is uncertain of God's role in life while I told her that I have left my old christian theologies, only accepting that "Love is God" plus the Golden Rule. Later she and I shared the burden of tending to her chickens after a dog attack. Thus the thoughts between us of life, suffering and death had a more practical yet emotional context. Yet, when her 5 year old asked me what I was doing with three badly injured birds and an ax, she uncomfortably interjected a gloss, an obfuscation. She was not comfortable telling him what was occuring and why.

I asked her if I could answer her boy, he being smart, having asked for a real answer. She allowed me to tell him why I was doing a kindness for the birds while the dog's actions were not.

She is struggling to grasp a real answer for living--and not just for herself. To know why life has meaning is a wide open question to her children now. Her one son is gone and her own mother's comment that God perhaps (mercifully) spared him a future agony by an early demise has not satisfied her. Her son is beyond her reach under the ground, she says. He left before she did. Too young.

She says "I have to go on or else I have to die. One or the other." But she has lost her joy and sense of purpose.

All I can say is this: And we know there is death from early on. Her son, from a letter she found in his effects, clearly wanted good for his mother. For his mother never to laugh again -- this would be no monument to him that he would want. he did not want his younger brothers and sisters to have his mother's joy die entirely with him. Yet--- If her laughter is forever changed--well, that is the work of suffering. That laughter changes. But to be stopped forever?

I do not think so.

We all must help each other here. this is where we help and love one another.

We do need to help each other--every chance we get.

Just my thoughts.