Bjc and Jr.
Apparently the watchtower has really done a number on you guys.
That last post from bjc is a perfect example of how you twist things that are written by reading things that are simply not there.
I never said I had Jehovah's E-mail. I said I was sorry that I didnt have it.I never said that only jews were christians. This is a very common symptom of people who have been in a mind control situation. I run into this type of things with Watchtowerites all the time. Comments like yes that is what the Bible says but that is not what it means. Or, yes thats what that verse says but thats not what we've been taught.
Try accepting what Jehovah says as something he means for a change.
You are totaly ignoring the post on Ezequiel 36
What part of "I, THE LORD, HAVE SPOKEN AND WILL DO IT" dont you get?
If God said that he will soften the heart of stone. He will do it!
If God said that he will put His spirit within them .He will do it!
If God said that they will live in the land of their forefathers. Then they will.
If God says that he will cleanse them he will!
All these things he will do not because they deserve it. He will do it for His name sake.
The promise was made to Abraham.
It had no condition.
The covenat of the law that was given to Israel (not to Abraham) was broken by Israel and as we all know they are paying for it, Jerusalem was crushed,the kingdom was taken away, they have been scattered etc. To this day they remain hardened. There will be an end to this, God will soften their hearts for His name sake.
When God puts his spirit within them they too will be spiritual.
As far as what is in Galatians 3, its not problem.
So far the gentiles are reaping the benefits of Israels temporary hardening. But when this ends according to Paul and Jehovah in Ezequiel 36 God will soften their hearts, put his spirit within them, cleanse them from their filth and them they will be obedient and they will be God's people and God will be their God.
This will be possible because God will make it possible.
If Israel is said to become obedient at that time, isnt part of that obedience their accepting Jesus as their King? There you have it!
They will be of Christ too, They too will have faith Just like Abraham
They will trust in God and be heirs to the promise.
Dont make the same mistake as Israel, they didnt have faith, it could lead to problems.
Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. The Holy Spirit makes a much better teacher than the watchtower. The watchtower is constantly flip flopping their teaching because of false speculations. Stop trying to read into scripture watchtower self fullfilling prophesy that's just not there.
The Word of God doesn't change.( even though the watchtower is trying its best to, with its NWT)
Try reading the word in context. Dont let the watchtower hold your hand through a detoured filled biblical obstacle course.
Try having the faith of Abraham and believe Gods word.
The Israelites cant make God break his promise to Abraham.
Dont continue sidestepping these issues.
God bless
Emiliano
JoinedPosts by Emiliano
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117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
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117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
God has picked Israel, Israel has proved to be disobedient. God prophesied all this would happen. In the end God's original unconditonal covenant whith Abraham is unilateraland Irrevocable.
Genesis 12:1"Go forth from your country,and from your relativesand from your father's to the land that I will show you. house 2I will make you great nation, And I will bless you, and make your name great; and so you shall be a blessing;3And I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
7.And the Jehovah appeared to Abraham and said to your descendants I will give this land. So he built an altar there to Jehovah who had appeared to him.( incidently this was not an angel making altars to angels isnt allowed)
The promise of the giving of that land to his descendants had no condition which Abraham had to keep.That was Jehovah's will just because he wanted to give him that promise.
God will fullfill his purpose in spite of what Abraham's descendants are srewing up.
Ezequiel touches on that something which Paul was apparently informed about.
Ezequiel 36:17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in THEIR OWN LAND,(by virtue of God's promise to Abraham) they defiled it by their ways and thier deeds;their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurit.18"Therefore, I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land,because they had defiled it with their idols.19"Also I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and thier deeds I judged them.(The judgement was scattering them not destroying them)20'When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them,'These people (natural Israel) are the people of Jehovah, yet they have come out of His land.'21"But I had concern for My holy name,which you have profaned among the nations where you went.22"Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God," It is not for your sake,(no, they didn't deserve it)O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name,which you have profaned among the nations where you went.23 "And I wil vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned against the nations, which you profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am Jehovah" declares the Lord God, when I prove Myself holy amoun you (natural Israel) in their sight. (How will God do that? Where were the natural Israelites among the nations, right?
This is how.):verse 24 " For I will take you (natural Israel) from the nations, gather you from all the lands,and bring you into your OWN LAND,(Remember this OWN LAND from verse 17? Its the same natural Israel) 25" Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you (natural Israel)will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.26 "Moreover, I will give you (natural Israel) a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone (that hardened heart)from your (natural Israel's) flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27" And I will put My Spirit within you ( guess what? God makes them spiritual) and you will be careful to observe my ordinances . 28 " And you (natural Israel) will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; ( the natural relatives who were disobedient idol worhippers) and you(natural Israel) will be My people, and I will be your God.29" More over I will SAVE you form your uncleanness, and I will call for the
grain to multiply and the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, that you may not recieve again( again means it is the same Israel, this isn't a substitute Israel because they wouldnt have had experienced it before)the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31
" Then you will remember will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were no good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 "I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord God,"let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O House of (who? naturally)Israel!". 33 Thus says The Lord God, "On the day that I cleanse you(natur... ) from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt. 34"And the desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by. 35 " And they willsay,' This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste,desolate, and ruined cities are fortified and inahabited."36 Then the nations that are left round about you(na..... ......you get the picture you cant be that slow ) will know that I, the Lord, Have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which is desolate; I THE LORD, HAVE SPOKEN AND WILL DO IT."
This is all about the restoration of Israel not the replacement of Israel.
What ealse do you guys need? Jehovah's E-mail? So that you can try to convince him what He will do? The Lord has spoken it,and will do it!
Sorry, and I really mean it sorry I don't have his E-mail. Try prayer. Stop parroting the Watchtower Magazines and start reading the Bible without the watchtower telling you what mental acrobatics and contortion you need to do so that you can see it their way. Read the Bible in context without reading watchtower self fullfiling prophesies that just aren't there, into it. Ask the Holy Spirit to
teach you. That works better than asking the watchtower to teach you. The Holy Spirit doesn't need to make changes or excuses for its false speculations. Try as you put it " the faith of Abraham", trust in God when he says " I, the Lord, have spoken and will do it."
1. The promise was made to Abraham
2.Disobedient Israel of old screwed things up especialy when they killed Jesus in the first century . They were scattered for that.
3. Israel of today are still paying for what their first century fathers did.
4.God will cleans them from their sins and soften their hardenend hearts.
God Bless -
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Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jr. and MDS
In the first century there was Israelites who became Christians,
so that easily explains why I find no problem with James speaking to natural israelites the remenant who became obedient believers in the first century. The remenant is not all of Israel. Yes in those days only a few accepted Christ some day the nation of Israel will see their mistake and soften their hearts to thier King Jesus. If it takes God's chastisement in form of bringing all other nations to war with Israel, so be it.
God will show mercy to the natural Israel and to The Gentiles
When the nation of Israel become believers they will be saved.Salvation is not a condemnation.
Remember that Paul is talking to the Gentiles about what is to happen to the natural nation of Israel in the future. The rementant Israelites of those days are not part of whom he is talking about there because these are not the hardened ones. The nation is the hardened one and some day they will be forgiven after they accept Christ. When this happens the gentiles, the remenant Israelites of the first century along with the ones who are becoming Christians until now,and the nation of Isreal who will some day accept Christ and become believers (having the faith of Abraham), all will be in Christ. Being that they will all be in his Kingdom they will all be citizens of the heavenly rule the spirtual Israel. -
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Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jr.
Your right I didnt see your post because I was still typing mine.
This doesnt change anything.
The prophesy in Luke has happened. Because of thier lack of faith.
The kingdom has been taken away. The Gentiles of that time were being included into the kingdom. Paul was aware of that,he touches on it in verse Rom.11:8.Many in the first century felt that emnesty. But Paul told them not to get a big head and not to be wise in their own estimation that is why he said it is only a Partial hardening.Thanks to that hardening now the gentiles are being shown mercy by God and being grafted in and UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come the nation of Israel will then no longer be hardened. To this day 2001 they remain in that situation hardened but some day God will graft them in when all the gentiles have come in the nation of Israel will no longer be hardened and will be regrafted into the kingdom.
Dont be wise to your own estimation. Paul said this is the riches of both the wisdome and knowledge of God!How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord or who became His counselor?
Can't argue with that.
Even if you cant fathom God showing mercy to the nation of Israel and eventualy including them into the kingom, this is God's plan, unless you feel that that the WT who is constantly flip floping their teaching has become His counselor.
God bless
Emiliano -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Israel's hardening is not permanent. It doesn't get much easier than this Paul clearly says (unless you aren't reading):
A PARTIAL ( as in not completely ) hardening has happened to Israel (still refering to the natural Israel) UNTIL (as in there is an end to that hardening) and thus All Israel will be saved. What part don't you get?
Gentiles get grafted to the tree (Jesus)
The Jews were torn from the tree because of their temporary hardening and disbelief. But that situation will change some day.
Im only stating what is in Romans chapter 11. It is very clear. I dont see what is so confusing. God is going to take away their sins.
that is God's gift and calling and verse 29 says they are IRREVOCABLE!
By regrafting them back in he will once again show his mercy to Israel just as he is showing it to the gentiles.
Hope that is of some help.
God bless -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Sorry if I repeted myself. I seemed to be disconnected from the web and didn't realize my first posting had gone through.
God Bless!
Emiliano -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
JR, MDS
God has not turned his back on Israel for ever. There shall be an end to this. This will be "until" all the gentiles have come in.
The natural branch the nation of Israel will be regrafted into the tree and so will the wild branches. This will be done because they are born of the spirit and are now toghther one body, with Jesus being our head. This body is the Israel of God. There is no confusion
Paul cleared it up 2000 years ago by letting us in on the explanation to that mystery.
Yes I Belive in Jehovah being the only true God -
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Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jr and MDS
According to the WT this great crowd cant be born of the spirit. So by their defenition This Spiritual Israel cant Be of the great crowd. Being a Jehovah's "Watchtower" Witness itself make you a spiritual Jew.
You must be born of the spirit this is only done by being in Christ. Not by being in the Watchtower.
Remember that the Natural Israel is not discarded forever this is only a temporary condition "UNTIL" all the gentiles have come in. Then all of Israel shall be saved .
So all believer will be grafted in the true Vine Jesus.We wont be grafted in the Watchtower.
Those grafted are the nation of Israel, the natural branches and the wild ones too, the gentiles. All believers will be one body with Christ as our head. This is the Spritual Israel, no confusion at all. No mystery, Paul already explained it. No Greek no Jew we are all One in Christ. CHRISTIANS
Emiliano -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jr:
Paul is making a point that there are two types of people those people who are of the flesh and those who are of the spirit.(Romans 8)
The Israelites who are of the flesh are not of God. Those who are Israelites of the spirit are of God. But They are still Israelites.
I am Mexican and I am spiritual so Im a spiritual Mexican I will never be a spiritual Israelite. My citizenship is a heavenly one,My King is Jesus Christ my Lord. He is the King of Israel and I am in his Kingdom. All believers through faith are sons of God Descecents of Abraham who was not a Jew. There is no Jew or Greek, we are all one body of Christian believers in a spiritual Government.(led by the spirit)
Romans 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? (What does the Bilble Say?) May it never be!
Romans ll:25 For I do not want you, bretheren,to be uninformed of this mystery,lest you be wise in yoour own estimation,that a partial hardening has happened to Israel Until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED just as it is written, " The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob."27 And This is my Covenant with them When I Take Away Their Sins.
...29 for the gifts and the calling of God are Irrevocable.30 For just as you once were disobedient to God but now have been shown mercy because of thier disobedience,so these also now hve been disobedient, in oreder that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable His ways!
Even though Israel has been unfaithful God is always faithful to his promises.
Emiliano -
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The Poor JW Children
by larc inthe children.
there are many things that could be changed, and even though i would never go back, i think there are some very basic changes they could make in their child rearing practices, simple changes that would make a big difference in their society.. 1. don't force small children to sit for two hours in a chair.. this was discussed at length on the thread about slapping children at the kingdom hall.. 2. don't bring children to meetings where the subject has to do with adult sexual practices.. 3. don't tell teenagers that they can't ask someone out for a date unless marriage is on their mind.. 4. don't tell them that they are not special, that they have to humble themselves and be like everyone else.. 5. don't tell them they have to get good grades through high school as a reflection of what jehovah has given them and then tell them they can't go to college when they graduate from high school at the top of their class.. 6. don't tell your wordly neighbors that you give your children presents all through the year, but not on their birthday, when they have never seen a special gift wrapped present in their life.. 7. don't expect a shy child to enjoy going from door to door and don't expect an extroverted, lively child to sit still at meetings.. 8. don't tell an inquiring child not to ask questions and don't tell them not to read interesting books.. 9. don't surprised if you don't change your ways that your children will leave you, even though they love you.
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Emiliano
Hi I'm new here. Just wanted to add a comment to this thread.
Parents shouldn't tell their child when h/s grows up that they seem to not be getting ahead in life and what's wrong with them.
I believe that many children raised as jws are seriously atrophied in whatever part of their brain has to do with aspiring and thriving. I think that if "you don't use it you lose it" applies here. When other children are dreaming about what they will be when they grow up something that is changing from day to day, you know, one day a fireman,another a doctor or another a movie director, jw kids are being discouraged from making any long term plans for their life.
After feeling this way about life through your formative years and all through your public school years by the time real life hits you in the face you are so behind the race. You dont have a clue as to what you would like to be. You are only then starting the self discovery phase of your life something that most children started in their early years. So you start your adult life in a scramble, not having a grasp of direction and disarmed to take on the many challenges that real life will throw at you.
Life is tough enough. All we can do is give it our best now but we will never make up those priceless years.
I'm glad I found this site! I think it is filling a great need!!