larc,
Anyone who is a true christian will bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit. This will Identify you among people as being a child of God, The I AM, YHWH. If you dont accept or believe in Jesus, God will not put His name on you. I doesn't matter if you use his name in the title of your group or not.
If you accept Christ you are led by the Spirit. The Spirit is our Seal.
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel (see 1Cor. 15:1-4: Gospel is identified)of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.
Who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possesion, to the praise of His Glory. Ephe.1:13,14
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephe. 4:30
You are right, the Name YHWH doesnt seem to be something that was used too often, especially in the New Testament.
What the Christians did, was to preach Christ. Those were the instructions left by Jesus to his followers. Jesus said in Acts 1:8
"and you shall be My Witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
Emiliano
JoinedPosts by Emiliano
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Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
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117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Hi, James I think your post is very accurate on how to address God and the significance of bearing his name. The name is all of what God stands for. It is not any virtue to appropriate the Name Jehovah to one's group and then say just because the name Jehovah is in the name of our group we have a relationship with him.
Thanks for the post.
Emiliano -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
JR
I guess that to you Ezeq. 36 and Rom. 11 are not scriptures!
The words there were not put in there by me.
If you want some deep hidden meaning that some exclusive group may have and no one else, return to the watchtower or some other cult that may claim they have exclusive understanding of Gods word.
The two leaders in Heaven's Gate had exclusive understanding that they were the two witnesses in the book of Revelation.
You had to be in "their group to see the deeper" things of God.
I am sorry that the Bible's face value does not satisfy your elitist need for exclusivity!
The Bible was made available to all the world for a reason. The Catholic chrurch lost exclusive rights to private interpretation many centuries ago.
James, I dont have a problem with your input. It is what I've been saying, that once someone believes they become of God.
When natural israel's heart is changed by Gods spirit being put in them as stated in Ezeq.36:26 they TOO will be of God "heirs to the promise" Rom.8:14-17 circumcised of the heart! It will be the changed heart, no longer their Jewish blood that will truly make them of the Israel of God. That, is attributed to their faith in Christ, your quote from Galatians explains this beautifuly!
I am not saying that they will be any more or less special or exalted!
All I'm saying is that their being broken of is only temporary.
And being Jewish doesnt exculde them from recieving the undeservekindness of God than none will ever deserve. Jr,MDS,BJC2012 when will you desreve it?
By Gods standard we are all, (Gentile or Jewish) filth!
GOD WILL, save us even though we may think that there is something we can Do to attain it on our own efforts or merits.
Which leads back to the supposed "Jr correction"
JEHOVAHS PROMISE TO ABRAHAM IS A UNILATERAL PROMISE
Jr, the only reason you agree or disagree with me is because you resarch what the watchtower has to say.
The Bible disagrees with what the Watchower says in reference to the high standards one must have to keep.
God made a promise to Abraham there was nothing Abraham could or couldnt do about it to deserve it it was only based on the faith that God saw in his heart!
Even the father of faith Abraham wanted to do things his way.
That is why he had a child with the Slave woman (it represented the old covenant the fiutility of man trying to do it)
This action was not showing too much faith, he did not wait on Jehovah to do it His way. He decided to do it on his own, not waiting on Jehovah he had a seed with Hagar, Ishmael.
But Jehovah would not get the credit this way!
This temporary lack of faith did not stop or change Jehovahs WILL to carry out his unilateral promise to Abraham.Nothing but faith was "required of Abraham to recieve Isaac"!
Jehovah said, I WLL and HE WILL. So What did Jehovah do ? HE DID!
Even Though Sarah was very old and it seemed impossible, and on top of that Abrahm screwed up having a child with a slave woman.
God kept his PROMISE ! Isaac. What action did Abraham do or not do to have Keep his promise? It was done AS GOD PROMISED, in spite of Abrahms own faith lacking, misguided efforts! It is Gods work not man's) Man misses the mark! The target was Sarah but he Aimed for the lowly slave. Faith in God and waiting on His Ability to do the work for us allows for the Holy spirit to work inside of our dead body!
Sarahs womb was dead. But it was Gods work that gave it life! That's the work of God, LIFE, God gives us that gift! Not man's efforts!
Waiting on God to do HIS work in our lives allows us to be led by HIM. It is only this way that we will produce great fruits of faith
such as the offering of Isaac in sacrifice to Jehovah.
Abraham by now knew to wait to see the work of God. Salvation is done by the Hand of God not man's hand. Who stopped Abraham ? It was God!
Salvation is what God does through the faith man has in HIM.
" For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are all HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, wich God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10
This is prefigured in Abraham's life.
His works, (Ishmael) were nothing to boast about when he did not have faith.When Abraham through faith waited on Jehovah, Jehovah's works had been prepared for Abraham and God himself would walk him through them.
Jehovah's High standards are only the works that HE does. The only thing we need to do is to have faith that he WILL do them and allow him to do His good works in our lives.The holy spirit will lead us through that walk of faith and then we will see the WORK OF GOD that He has prepared beforehand.
That is our struggle, to continue on believing that GOD WILL DO what HE SAID HE WILL DO.
That is The Abraham faith. He is the father of Faith not because he always believed. But because he shows what happens when you dont believe and How God Works in us When you do Belive.
Jr, MDS,BJC2012, "logical"?,
I know you dont believe in God's word at its face value.
Abraham too thought that God must have meant something other than what he said. It couldnt be at "face value",its some obscure deep meaning perhaps, he probably meant it should be Haggar?
So let it be a lesson dont put words in Gods mouth!
That is a lack of faith!
SALVATION GOD WILL DO IT THAT'S "HIS WORK" he is better at it than you or I,SO get out of the way, relax and BELIEVE, God takes over from there. Let GOD TAKE OVER . HE GETS ALL THE GLORY
The glory of belonging to some "exclusive group of special deep understanding" that leads to some short lived fleshly result like Abraham's Ishmael is not my Idea of trusting in God at the face value of what he says!
I encourage you all to take God seriously and to accept his word at face value. God means what he says and says what he means.
I know, I know. "But that takes faith"! And it can at times be scary to not be the ones in control. We all struggle with that!
God is in control no one cant take that away from Him.
We just have to live our lives as if we really "BELIEVE" that!
And that is what it is all about
The greatest Gift of All is God's
Love.
We have access through Faith.
I know it can be hard to stay on that course of belief , but it is a struggle worth fighting to keep!
I Pray we all keep trusting and believing in God and His Work of Salvation by His own Hand! That we all may one day say like Paul:
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith." 2Tim.4:7
Doing all this in Love for you all, I would like in conclusion quote the words of Paul in Ephesians 6:23,24
Peace be to the bretheren, and love with faith,from God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible.
with Love; David, alias "Emiliano" -
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Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
jr
You are once more trying to say something other than what I,ve brought up in conversation!
You are questioning me as if I brought up the Mosaic Law as something that hadn't applied to N. Israel. This is nothing but a smoke screen.
It clearly did apply, and that is why I said previously that we are all informed that N. Israel is not in the kingdom at this time.
The old Covenant is called such because they were written to N.Israel by God with His finger.... now listen to this very carefully and open your ears very wide ... "ON STONE"!! Again, ON STONE!
This represents the heart of Natural Israel. Jehovah said in
Ezequiel 36:26 I will give YOU,... (the same N. Israel He Has been Identifying and talking about to all along, If you try to insert spiritual Israel here it doesent make sense. They didnt have a heart of stone or were removed from any land that they may recive a new heart and be brought back to their OWN LAND)... continuing verse 26 says: a NEW heart and put a new spirit within YOU, and I will remove the heart of Stone from YOUR flesh and give YOU a heart of flesh.
Verse28: And YOU will live in the land that I gave to YOUR forefathers
1. Where in Ezeq. does it say that Spiritual Israel had a heart of stone and lost the land given to their forefathers?
2. Where do you see in Ezeq. a) that Spiritual Israel was in that Land b)were scattered,c) profaned Jehovahs name while they went to the nations,d) in what previous time, that they may return, be "regrafted" to it?(you obviously dont get the RE in the word grafted concept) Yeah, Yeah, I know, that's what the Bible says but the Watcthower says it means something ealse. Your body may be out, but they still have your mind!
The New Covenant is no longer the The Mosaic law, written in stone
It is the Law of CHRIST written in your hearts. (not stone!, the stone heart will be softened)
The New Heart of flesh is the one that will allow natural Israel to believe in Christ!Thus not being exculded from Gods Undeserved Kindness. Do You think N. Israel desreves it? Do YOU deserve it? This is what the New Covenant is about! God's Grace peoples hearts
Undeserved kindness is deserved by no one.Not natural Israel,not the gentiles,not Jehovhas witnesses not ANYBODY! We are all in need of MERCY. The old Mosaic law was used to show that! The Solution is Christ! He stops the condemnation of the Law in all those that belive in HIM.
And as I see in you and you see in Natural Israel, some are more stubborn than others. But thats OK, not to worry, God can do ANYTHING! It just takes a little longer with some than with others
If and Then:
If they did not obey, they were removed!
When their heart are softened THEN they will obey!
That is your IF and Then answer!
Thats Where God says HE WILL.
Otherwise it is no longer God Who gets the credit for doing it!
It will be weak, stubborn, sinfull man who did it!
Dont You Get it no man will do it! GOD WILL DO IT!
You are argueing with Jehovah, these are His words not mine.
Every time he says I Will, I Will, I Will. HE WILL.
Answer those simple questions! Again they are numbered, aswer accordingly! You've been trained very well on answering to: "1 part a)"
Then go back and try that with the rest of the post you havent responded to! -
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Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jehovahs people are all "Christians" because they belive in Christ.
You are still not Addressing the Issuses and points in the post.
Repeating the same argument which Ive already answered
The generation ...
Yes Can hear that! And I can respond and have responded you are the one who isnt listening! And havent responded!
I can hear that; the promise goes to the gentiles. Cant you hear or understand as The Bible explains that this is what was meant about the wild brances being Grafted in? natural Israel their enemies, will not be excluded because they will be re-grafted in?
Jehovah will show mercy to all who come to Christ not to all who become "Jehovah's Witnesses" or you would be excluded if you leaft.
When natural Israels heart is softened they will have faith in Christ too!
That is you if an then response!
You have ears and eyes!
Dont keep covering them.
Yes you need to say more.
Read the post and respond To the points.
MDS Same applies to you!
CAPEESH? -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Jr
Jehovah made the promise to Abraham. This promise was a unilateral covenant that Jehovah made with Abraham. In other words there was only one side that agreed to do something.
There was no condition imposed on Abraham.
You are right no one can thwart Jehovahs plans, in this case he is using the temporary removal of the Natural Israelites so that the wild branches may come in. After the the fullness of the gentiles come in natural Israel will be re-grafted. I've answered your Galatians 3 questions in the post you are avoiding.
Ive already answered this same question. Its in the post which you
keep avoiding. What are your explanations to that post? I would like to know, I numbered the points so you can respond accordingly.
It appears you that you cant. -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
These are only observations.
You may no longer be a JW but that doesnt mean you havent been affected by it.
You still havent responded to the post!
Indicate what part or parts of this argument aren't scripturally sound? -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
If the watchtower has such direct accurate knowledge in these last days why have they had so many failed prophecies?
Because they dont have accurate knowledge
Only false speculations!
Read your Bible not the Watchtower inaccurate Speculations. -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
JR
Its so easy Ive already answered it in the previous post.
1. Gal.3:14 is reflected by what Paul said about the broken branches that the wild ones would be grafted in.
2. The promise of faith God made with Abraham. Anyone who is faithfull is of Christ. When Natural Israel's heart is softened by God they too will belong to Christ.
The few remenant Jews that became believers in the first century,The gentiles that become believers and finally when God softens the heart of Natural Israel they too will be faithfull. Go back to Ezeq. and Rmns Post.
You keep asking the same questions . Ive already answered .
And yet Ive noticed that you guys are not tackleing Ezeq. and Romans
You are avoiding it. Is it that the Watchtower did not program you to do any thinking of your own?
Answer the questions of my previous post.
Emiliano -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Emiliano
Hi Guys, Sorry for taking so long. Im having problems with my service provider . This is the fourth attempt in sending this post.
Hope it doesnt get lost too.
JR Youve learned a very nasty habit from the WT. Adding more to what is written. You keep putting words in my mouth, show me where I said that only Jews were Christian? Point it out!
Yes a few Jews did become Christian in the first century,it wasnt the whole nation. Most of the believers were gentiles. There is no conflict with what James wrote. You are right the old system was removed. The small number of Jews who became believers have just done so before the rest of the nation of Israel has. There is no problem there its all in the Bible. Remember these are the ones who God will show mercy to, the broken branches which have that have been broken that the wild branches, in other words the gentiles may be grafted.
Tell me this, Who are the enemies mentioned in Romans 11?
What does it mean when Paul says they will be re-grafted? answer that!
Why cant he say that about the (gentiles) wild brances?
Are the wild branches being put back to a tree they were never in before when they are Grafted in? Answer that!
What About these enemies (natural Israel) the natural branches who were broken off? Are they being put back to a tree they have been torn from? Out of these two which branch is being put BACK?
These questions are even easier to answer than those at the bottom of your WT Magazines! The difference is that here you would be underlining and higlighting your Bible or God's words and what his thought on the subject is. The WT magazines words you underline are the answers that they want you to understand! Listen to God' s words not the WT's. Get back to me on the verses presented to you on Romans
11:1 What does Paul mean When saying "God has not rejected His people,has HE? Answer that! And why does he follow with" for I too am a n Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." Was Pauls blood not Naturally Israelie blood ?
What is this whole Chapter saying ?
In summerize it for you.
1.Natural Israel is the natural brancehes.
2.The gentiles are the wild brancehes.
3.The natural Israel was disobedient that the wild brancehes may be grafted in.
4.The Natural Israel Israel has stumbled but not fallen completely.
5.The nation of Natural Israel were viewed as enemies to the belivers of the first century.
6.They have hardened hearts.
7.This condition is not complete nor permanent.
8. The words "partial hardening" and "until" prove point 7.
9. Thus all of Israel will be saved means just that!
10'Through out the Chapter he is the Romans not to think that Their "enemies will not some day also become believers"
11. When the nation of Israel is re grafted and the gentiles are grafted these both groups will be in Christ. This way both the nation of Israel is included and The gentiles are included in the new system
The system of grace(undeserved kindness) and mercy not the old system of the law that would condemn both groups.
Please show me by number which of these points are not Part of Romans 11.
MDS
You too are twisting and reading more that what I wrote into my words.
Point out to me where I wrote, that it is the first century NauralIsrael of Jesus's day that would be exalted?
You are stumbleing over your own arguments.
You yourself gave me the answer in your supposed objection. That objection is no Objectiion at all!
Didnt you write[of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus's day] ?
There is your answer! Jesus was telling that to as you pointed out that Generation.
Boy! that word Generation is such a problem for you Watchtower heads. Jesus in talking to that first century generation he foretold many things that would happen to that first century generation.
The desolation of Jerusalem, no stone would be left upon another.. you know; Jesus told them This of Generation of 1914...oops!thats not in the bible is it? Sorry thats just another false WT speculation
will not pass away... Anyway you get the point. The things that Jesus foretold about this " first century Natural ISRAEL" were fulfilled. Is it just, that these first century Israel are to be judged for not having recognized Jesus as their Messiah on palm Sunday and for having been the ones who had him put to death?
Of course! No confilict there! That makes perfect sense! They will be Judge accordint to what they did, When? In that first century!
There is no natural Israelite that is alive today that existed in the first century. Why would these Israelites in 2001 be judged for
putting Jesus to death? They were simply not even there to have had anything to do with it! Now that doesnt make any sense. It is understandable that the following generations have inherited many of the problems form their first century forefathers. A bad reputation, a bad name, being scattered,having the kingdom taken away, being hated by other nations anti- semitism , a hardened heart, etc. etc. All these things are understandable consequences caused by their first century forefathers.
If a mans great grandfather murdered my greatgrandfather It would not make any sense for me to attempt to put the great grandson on trial! If you were that grandson and I came to you and told you your greatgrandfather killed my greatgrandfather and that I was going to going to take you to trial for that murder. You would say ;"are you crazy or something? I wasn't even born yet. The courts will throw it out." This is how ridiculous your argument sounds!!!
Respond to this MDS.
About Ezequiel 36; It is absolutely Identifying natural Israel here! Point out to me what verse, if any, you could insert "spiritual Israel" and still have it make sense.
For instance, when has spiritual Israel lived in the land that God promised Abraham He would given to his Natural offspring? answer that! Even if spiritual Israel will be heirs of Abrahams faith which I believe to be true, they have never lived in that land for them to return to it! You cant return to a place you have never been in before! How do YOU return ? Explain that! The whole chapter discribes the Restoration of Natural Israel. Webster's Dictionary defines RESTORATION: A bringing back to a former position or condition. Since when does spiritual Israel have a former position or condition in Gods relationship that they may go back to? Answer that! All of Ezequiel is filled with these issues, I've posted them verse by verse. Please respond answering the verses posted! The verses are Gods words not Mine.
I inserted for your benefit (natural Israel) throughout the post of Ezequiel. Try inserting spiritual Israel in the same manner it just doesnt fit in . If you think it does explain How!
MDS, Jr: you keep sidestepping these issuses. What is your response?
Use your own mind if you still have it.
Re: MDS to Tr
That is absurd.
The wt winning some court cases doesnt prove any such thing!
There are many cults who are protected by our constitution
All it shows is that the constitution supports freedom of religion.
OJ Simpson won a court case too!
If he claimed that he must be innocent because if he wasnt God wouldnt have cleared the obstacles that led him to win his aquittal?
Would you belive that?
I bet if the wt told you to believe it, you would!
These claims are absurd!!
God bless
I'll keep praying for you
Emiliano