Posts by Englishman

Matty told me that when he left the UK he gave the local elders a fictitious new KH addy in Florida. The addy was really that of a friend of his! Consequently Matty got back his record cards plus a letter from his old PO to the new BOE saying how much his meeting attendance needed to improve!

Englishman.

14

A Libation To The Gods..

by Englishman in

we've just returned from the wedding of our first born son, simon, to tania.

it was great, i shall post some pics in a few days.

however, following the wedding, i had a brief telephone conversation with my jw mum who asked me if anyone had noticed that she had not joined in any of the toasts to the bride and groom.

Englishman

OMG..she's actually quoted the WT verbatim to me in her telephone conversation. Which means she's done some research ready for such an occasion. Look at this:

WT. 1/1/68:

Questions

from Readers

•

Is it proper for Christians to "drink a toast" when they get together?—M. D., U.S.A.

In some lands, when acquaintances are about to part, they have a parting drink of some alcoholic beverage, with glasses raised and touched together and accompanied with an expression of ‘to your health’ or something similar. At wedding receptions frequently a toast is similarly offered to the health and happiness of the newlyweds. Understandably, some have questioned whether it would be Scripturally proper for Christians to share in such toasts.

Certainly there is nothing wrong with a Christian’s wishing a friend happiness and good health. Nor would it be improper to do so as a group. The spiritually older men in the first century concluded a letter to the Christian congregations with an expression meaning, essentially, "Good health to you!"—Acts 15:29.

But is that all there is to "toasting"? Why do the toasters raise their glasses, or lift their mugs and clink them together? Is it in imitation of some custom? Note what The Encyclopædia Britannica, 11 th Ed., Volume 13, page 121, says:

"The custom of drinking ‘health’ to the living is most probably derived from the ancient religious rite of drinking to the gods and the dead. The Greeks and Romans at meals poured out libations to their gods, and at ceremonial banquets drank to them and to the dead." Then, after showing how such pagan customs survived among Scandinavian and Teutonic peoples, this reference work adds: "Intimately associated with these quasi-sacrificial drinking customs must have been the drinking to the health of living men."

When most people join in a "toast" they probably do not imagine that they might be copying the custom of lifting up a libation or liquid sacrifice to pagan gods, yet that could be so. Without question, a faithful Christian would not share in an actual pagan sacrifice, realizing that "you cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons." (1 Cor. 10:21) A mature Christian would also avoid even imitating false religious rituals. This spiritually mature course would please Jehovah. Remember, God specifically warned the Israelites against copying religious practices of the pagan nations round about them.—Lev. 19:27; 21:5.

If a Christian is going to make a request for divine blessing on another, then an appropriate way to do that is through heartfelt prayer to God, not by following traditions based on pagan worship that Jehovah abhors.—Phil. 1:9; 2 Cor. 1:11.

Customs and traditions abound all over the earth. If a mature Christian knew that a particular one was directly based on false religion, obviously he would avoid it. But not all customs are objectionable. Some may simply be local practices or etiquette without a false religious origin, such as greeting by shaking hands or bowing. (Gen. 23:7) Each individual can consider what he knows about a particular custom and his own motive with regard to it. Just why is he doing it? He might also ask himself, ‘Will doing this stumble others, or will people in the community link my actions with false religion?’ (1 Cor. 10:32, 33) No one else can serve as the conscience for a particular Christian; hence each one can think the matter over and make a decision so as to have a clear conscience.—Acts 23:1; 2 Cor. 1:12.

YEUK.

Englishman.

14

A Libation To The Gods..

by Englishman in

we've just returned from the wedding of our first born son, simon, to tania.

it was great, i shall post some pics in a few days.

however, following the wedding, i had a brief telephone conversation with my jw mum who asked me if anyone had noticed that she had not joined in any of the toasts to the bride and groom.

Englishman

tijkmo said:

does your mum wear a wedding ring

Excellent, thank you. I looked up the Questions from Readers on this, and found one line that answers all matters regarding so-called pagan customs!

Here ya go:

>>>>>>•

Is it proper for a Christian to wear a wedding ring?—Greece.

Many sincere Christians have asked this question out of a desire to avoid any custom of which God might disapprove. Some of the questioners know that Catholic prelate John H. Newman wrote: "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, . . . sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." (An Essay on the Development of the Christian Doctrine, 1878) While the facts prove that many of the current religious practices Newman lists definitely were adopted from pagan worship, is that true of the wedding ring?

Actually there are conflicting ideas as to the origin of the wedding ring. Let us give a few examples: "Originally . . . the ring was a fetter, used to bind the captive bride." (For Richer, for Poorer) "The ring is a relatively modern substitute for the gold coin or other article of value with which a man literally purchased his wife from her father." (The Jewish Wedding Book) "The wedding ring is supposed to be of Roman origin, and to have sprung from the ancient custom of using rings in making agreements." (American Cyclopædia) "Various explanations have been given of the connection of the ring with marriage. It would appear that wedding-rings were worn by the Jews prior to Christian times."—The International Cyclopaedia.

It is thus seen that the precise origin of the wedding ring is uncertain. Even if it were a fact that pagans first used wedding rings, would that rule such out for Christians? Not necessarily. Many of today’s articles of clothing and aspects of life originated in pagan lands. The present time divisions of hours, minutes and seconds are based on an early Babylonian system. Yet, there is no objection to a Christian’s using these time divisions, for one’s doing so does not involve carrying on false religious practices.

Of course, our concern is greater as regards the use of wedding rings, since this relates, not to minor secular matters, but to the marriage relationship, which the Christian rightly views as sacred before God. Really, the question is not so much whether wedding rings were first used by pagans but whether they were originally used as part of false religious practices and still retain such religious significance. As has been shown, the historical evidence does not allow for any definite conclusion on this. What does the Bible say about the use of rings?

The Bible shows that some of God’s servants in the past wore rings, even ones that had special meaning attached to them. Wearing a signet ring could indicate that one had received authority to act in behalf of the ruler who owned it. (Gen. 41:42; Num. 31:50; Esther 8:2, 8; Job 42:11, 12; Luke 15:22) So, while wedding rings are not mentioned, these true worshipers clearly did not scruple against using rings for more than mere adornment.

Some persons say that a wedding ring represents one’s unending love and devotion in marriage. The increasing divorce rate in many lands where married persons usually wear a wedding ring proves that this meaning is more imagined than real. Nonetheless, for the majority of persons, including Christians, in lands where wedding rings are common, the ring is an outward indication that the wearer is a married person. In other localities the same point is shown in a different way, such as by a woman’s wearing a certain style of clothing.

Of course, a wedding ring is by no means a Christian requirement. One Christian might decide not to wear a wedding ring, because of conscience, personal taste, cost, local custom, or some other reason. Yet another Christian might decide to indicate his married status by means of a wedding ring. Hence, in the final analysis the decision is a personal one, to be made in accord with the conscientious views one holds.<<<<<<<<

Great! If it no longer contains the same religious significance it's OK.

Englishman.

14

A Libation To The Gods..

by Englishman in

we've just returned from the wedding of our first born son, simon, to tania.

it was great, i shall post some pics in a few days.

however, following the wedding, i had a brief telephone conversation with my jw mum who asked me if anyone had noticed that she had not joined in any of the toasts to the bride and groom.

Englishman

We've just returned from the wedding of our first born son, Simon, to Tania. It was great, I shall post some pics in a few days.

However, following the wedding, I had a brief telephone conversation with my JW Mum who asked me if anyone had noticed that she had not joined in any of the toasts to the Bride and Groom. I just grunted and tried to change the subject., However, she persisted and said that we were asking for the blessing of pagan gods when we had raised our glasses in a toast. Umm..not so, Mother, I was toasting Simon & Tania, never had any pagan gods in mind. Ah..but, she persisted, the origins of toasting go back thousands of years and even if you weren't aware of it you were asking the gods to protect the happy couple blah blah blah.. Rubbish Mother! I knew what was in my mind when I raised my glass and you can't tell me that I was asking the gods for anything when I know that I wasn't...where do you get these daft ideas from?

Anyway, the conversation ground to halt in the usual unsatisfactory way that it tends to do when you're trying to be rational to a JW infected mind.

But what is with these people with their toasting ban, their Christmas ban and their birthday ban?

Just because something used to be associated with something, why do they assume it's always going to be associated with it? Don't these people ever move on. And where do you draw the line of association with a thing or a custom? Just because something meant something thousands of years ago, it doesn't follow that the it means the same thing now, does it?

At this rate, JW's soon won't be allowed to bang a nail in the wall without being accused of recreating Jesus' death.

They're barmy. Bloody barmy, the lot of 'em.

Englishman.

264

Are You For or Against The Death Penalty?

by minimus in

jw
friends

personally, i have nothing against executing wanton murderers.

Englishman

Shame on you Minimus. Shame on your country for still living in the Dark Ages and practising such a barbaric ritual as the putting to death of it's own citizens. It's disgusting.

Englishman.

264

Are You For or Against The Death Penalty?

by minimus in

jw
friends

personally, i have nothing against executing wanton murderers.

Englishman

Obviously, no one innocent should be executed. But when there's no doubt to even pro-lifers that the person did the heinous murder, they should be quickly and efficiently be neutralized

Minimus is obviously happy to ally himself with countries who have little regard for human life and are only interested in vengeance. China, Saudi Arabia..Congo..Iran...there is another major country whose name escapes me...

Englishman.

377

HAHA TAKE THAT U OZZIES

by tijkmo in

.

england 179-8. australia 79 all out in 14 overs.

bring it on

Englishman

All out for 190!

C'mon, England!

IN-GER-LAND! Woo Hoo! Keep it up, only 8 weeks to go!

Englishman.

17

Who and What was the deal on this Leo Greenlee's person ?????

by run dont walk in

.

from rumour, i understand he was a governing body member, and he liked getting new bethelite boys drunk and playing hide the hot dog in your bum, and that he was transferred to new orleans as a "special pioneer", now this is all rumour, do we have any facts, and how long was he a governing body member, and did he die a faithful witness ???????

any info on this guy would be appreciated.. thanks in advance

Englishman

Edgar Clay?

Wow. He had a really "plummy" voice. Worked at London Mill Hill type setting as I recall.

BTW, there were guys back then who believed that homosexuality was a very dilute form of fornication that was not to be regarded as a DF'able offence. They really did regard it as no more serious than masturbation.

Englishman.

264

Are You For or Against The Death Penalty?

by minimus in

jw
friends

personally, i have nothing against executing wanton murderers.

Englishman

When "innocent people" are not being killed, I'm all for the death penalty.

Minimus, You can't possibly be for the death penalty. You've come out of some weird religion that promulgates death as the only alternative to being a believer. Death is not a punishment, it's not a lesson in life that enriches the recipient so that he becomes better informed. It's certainly not a process of rehabilitation. It is simply a retribution. Aren't you just sick of retribution? Englishman.