Jonathan Drake,
I don't give a damn whether we call this "Something" God or Allah or Jehovah or Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Why are YOU so hung up on labels???
FusionTheism
JoinedPosts by FusionTheism
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182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
Viviane, you started this thread by accusing me of lying or misrepresenting what Stephen Hawking said.
I want you to show me where I did that.
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182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
This website has a huge case of Throwing the Baby Out with the Bathwater -
182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
Jonathan Drake,
Stephen Hawking himself declares that if "Imaginary Time" ends up being false that means...
"There would have to be something outside the universe, to wind up the clockwork, and set the universe going."
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182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
Freemindfade,
It's a logical fallacy to reject someone's argument because they are a goat herder (or any other occupation).
It's also the logical fallacy known as "Chronological Snobbery" to reject something because it is old.
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182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
Viviane,
A couple more Stephen Hawking quotes:
"The discovery recently of the extreme fine-tuning of so many laws of nature could lead some to the idea that this grand design has a Grand Designer…True, the laws of the universe seem tailor made for humans."
"The no boundary condition, is the statement that the laws of physics hold everywhere. Clearly, this is something that one would like to believe, but it is a hypothesis. One has to test it, by comparing the state of the universe that it would predict, with observations of what the universe is actually like. If the observations disagreed with the predictions of the no boundary hypothesis, we would have to conclude the hypothesis was false.****There would have to be something outside the universe, to wind up the clockwork, and set the universe going.****
Of course, even if the observations do agree with the predictions, that does not prove that the no boundary proposal is correct. But one's confidence in it would be increased, particularly because there doesn't seem to be any other natural proposal, for the quantum state of the universe."
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182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
Jonathan Drake,
I like to use dictionaries, I'm not sure what you use?
Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically :belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world
American Heritage Dictionary:
- n.Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.
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182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
Poor Viviane, looks like I'm actually going to have to provide the direct quotations from Stephen Hawking's webpage...
"All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology."
"Another attempt to avoid a beginning to time, was the suggestion, that maybe all the galaxies didn't meet up at a single point in the past. [...] However, their claim was proved wrong, by a number of theorems by Roger Penrose and myself."
"If one can determine that there is enough matter in the universe, to focus our past light cone, one can then apply the singularity theorems, to show that time must have a beginning. [...]"
"One can then apply the theorem of Penrose and myself, to show that time must have a beginning."
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182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
Viviane, Yes, Stephen Hawking does say those things. They are found here on his own webpage: http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html -
182
The Case for Theism
by FusionTheism in"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.
" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.
atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.
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FusionTheism
"Theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life." ("God" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)
The most common claim that I see atheists making on Twitter, is that "NO EVIDENCE" exists in support of belief in a God.
This post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an Initiator. Atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.
Now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an Initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.
And... here... we... go:
1:) Many leading scientists, including Stephen Hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the Singularity/Big Bang. Time itself did not exist, and then it came into existence. Things can only naturally happen by cause-and-effect within time. So the very event of time itself coming into existence, is a "supernatural" event (something beyond or outside of the natural course of cause-and-effect).Everything we know in science requires time. There is cause-and-effect in nature and in the universe because things happen in time. Nothing we have ever seen has happened without time. Thus, in order to be a natural event, time must exist.
So, any event occurring without time would be a "miracle," and especially the event of time itself coming into existence, without time existing previously, would be miraculous by anyone's definition. Either time created itself from nothing, before it existed, or something else outside of time created time.
Since it is a logical absurdity to claim that time existed before time existed, and created itself, we are left with the thought that something else must have created time.
2:) The universe and earth appear to be very unlikely and improbably fine-tuned to support life. Even Stephen Hawking and other leading scientists admit this.
(So far, we have the universe coming into existence by a means that is beyond the natural cause-and-effect, and we have very improbable fine-tuning for life, both pointing toward the existence of an Initiator beyond our universe)
3:) Science has never observed life naturally developing from non-life on its own, therefore, the scientific position would be to assume that it did not naturally happen on its own (This points to either an Initiator/God or to extraterrestrials seeding and engineering life on earth and beginning evolution).
4:) The existence of a "Cosmic Mathematician" (Mind beyond our universe) would explain how a universal working system of mathematics just happened to be built into the universe.
5:) A worldview with an Initiator and "Law-Giver" building moral values into His creatures makes more sense with our experiences of moral obligation, guilt, and our sense of justice. Without the existence of a "Law-Giver" or "3rd party objective moral umpire," then right and wrong are merely the subjective opinions of each person.
6:) A worldview with an Initiator building into His human creation's brains, the ability to discern true from false, fits better with our view of reality, and with our assumption that our brains are giving us truthful, accurate information.
7:) Things humans deeply desire actually exist, for example: food, water, sexual partner, money, even the ability to fly (by creating jets, planes, etc). The desire of a "Higher Power" is deep in humans, going back hundreds of thousands of years, and in every part of the earth.
8:) Atheists admit that the basis for accepting logic, math, and moral obligations, is the fact that a large majority of human beings experience these things and intuitively know them to be true. A majority of humans have also experienced a "Higher Power" or spiritual things, and the answer to silent prayers.9:) The Bible accurately predicted, with precise detail, centuries in advance, the following:
(a): that the Jewish Messiah would appear in 33 A.D., and would be killed, then the same government that killed Him would destroy the rebuilt Temple. (Daniel 9:24-27)
(b): that skeptics would rise up in the "Last Days" and claim that Noah's Flood never happened and that there is no Creator. (2 Peter 3:5-7)
No one has ever naturally predicted the future with any accuracy. This points to something beyond nature with foreknowledge.10:) The Bible accurately declared advanced scientific knowledge, such as:
(a): The earth is suspended in empty space. (Job 26:7)
(b): The earth is spherical. (Isaiah 40:22)
(c): There are "springs" on the ocean floor. (Job 38:16; Genesis 7:11; Proverbs 8:28)
(d): You must quarantine sick people. (Leviticus 13:4, 46; Leviticus 14:8; Numbers 5:2; 2 Kings 15:5)
This points to something beyond ancient humanity that provided them with advance/early scientific information which was not discovered by scientists until recent times.I look forward to hearing your comments on this.