Posts by jeshurun

18

"All of Israel will be saved" vs JW salvation

by *jeremiah* in

it seems as if the jw religion in general has much contempt for israel.

correctly me if i'm wrong, but,...in short, the jw religion thinks they have become israel,...."spiritual israel", anyways.

or, in other words, the blessings and promises for israel have been transfered to the wts and it's faithful members.. which brings up an interesting question.

jeshurun

Jeremiah

In the course of the 70th Week the Jews face an ultimate decision: Will they accept at last their true Messiah, Jesus, or will they follow to a catastrophic end the pseudo-Christ?

just a speculative subject here but,...when Israel flees from Judea, do you believe that's literal, and any speculation where they are going.

Yes, I deem it most probable that the flight must be understood literally. Why?

Because that flight of the Messianic Remnant will be their response to the erection of “the abomination of desolation” in a rebuilt temple [the future Third Temple] at [the literal] Jerusalem (Mt 24:15).

In the middle of the 70th Week, when the pseudo-Christ breaks his covenant with the Jews, he obviously erects a dreadful idol in that rebuilt temple.

Compare Is 66:1-6 and Rev 13:14-15.

Apparently that event has a relation with 2 Thess 2:4

He [the Man of Lawlessness, alias the Pseudo-Christ] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

At that time the Great Tribulation is for the pious Remnant more than imminent!

So, their flight to the mountainous region of Judea is rather plausible.

As Thomas Ice commented:

<< Verses 16-20 describe the recommended response of the faithful who see the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem. They are to get out as fast as they can. Why? It is because the second-half of the tribulation will be a time of persecution and great tribulation for the Jewish remnant… Therefore, the sooner that the Remnant can get out of town, then the less likely it will be that antichrist will be able to persecute the Jews.

Another reason why they will be able to flee instantly is because they will be miraculously provided for and protected as they make their way to Petra for three and a half years of safekeeping… Matthew 24:16-20 provides a set of instructions for the Remnant. Christ tells them where to go: the Judean mountains. Jesus says to flee instantly. Don't even take a few minutes to collect a few personal belongings like your cloak in the field or a few items from your house for the journey. He warns that it will be difficult to navigate the mountainous terrain if pregnant or nursing a newborn. Jesus does not say that it will be impossible, but it will be difficult…Other passages provide a more complete picture of this three and a half year wilderness sojourn. etc >>

Among the other passages Ice mentions are:

Rev 12:6, 14
Is 41:17-20
Micah 2:12

18

"All of Israel will be saved" vs JW salvation

by *jeremiah* in

it seems as if the jw religion in general has much contempt for israel.

correctly me if i'm wrong, but,...in short, the jw religion thinks they have become israel,...."spiritual israel", anyways.

or, in other words, the blessings and promises for israel have been transfered to the wts and it's faithful members.. which brings up an interesting question.

jeshurun

Jeremiah

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.Matt 24
what do u think? Is this national Israel regaining it's statehood in 1948 or when national Israel regains it's spirituality (valley of dry bones) sometime in the future?

No, I don’t think so.
Imo, Jesus does not put any emphasis on Israel in Mt 24:32.
The parable of the fig tree has nothing to do with the establishment of Israel as a national state in 1948.
Jesus is merely saying that when the Messianic Jews of the end-time see the events, characteristic for his parousia, taking place, then they can be sure that his coming for judgment is near. His statement is still within the scope of his reaction on the question of Mt 24:3.

Besides, The parallel passage in Luke 21:29 excludes any reference to Israel in the parable:
Behold the fig tree and all the trees!
In my perception the time for the fulfilment of the restoration prophecies will not come until the 70th Week has its start.
What I do believe is that JHWH God in his providence has foreseen the various developments in connection with the establishment of the State of Israel and the subsequent events, such as the return of many Jews out of their Diaspora to Palestine.

That course of affairs is in the present time shaping the precise circumstances for the fulfilment of Daniel 9:27, at the start of the 70th Week. As predicted the pseudo-Christ will then make a covenant with “the many”; an agreement however, which he will break in the middle of the Week:

And he will confirm a covenant to the many, for one week,—but, in the middle of the week, will cause sacrifice and present to cease(Da 9:27a; Rotherham).

Pse compare:

The highways are deserted, no travelers are on the roads.
The treaty is broken, its witnesses are despised, no one is respected.

Is 33:8; NIV [NWT: He has broken the covenant...]

18

"All of Israel will be saved" vs JW salvation

by *jeremiah* in

it seems as if the jw religion in general has much contempt for israel.

correctly me if i'm wrong, but,...in short, the jw religion thinks they have become israel,...."spiritual israel", anyways.

or, in other words, the blessings and promises for israel have been transfered to the wts and it's faithful members.. which brings up an interesting question.

jeshurun

Jeremiah

Personally, I believe when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then that will be the end of the church age or age of grace and the rapture will occur.

Those in Christ will be gone and "hardened Israel" will be left. After their covenant is broken they will have to flee for their lives. I think a remnant will escape and turn to Christ. Thus all of this remnant of Israel will be saved and it will be "all Israel" because this might be the only Israel left.

This is also in my perception how in the end-time [during the 70th Week of Dan 9] affairs are going to unfold in Gods purpose.
Although your view on ALL ISRAEL differs from mine, the practical outcome is as good as the same.
Yet a single note concerning ALL ISRAEL:

For me an additional reason to view ALL ISRAEL as "The Israel of God", is the context in which the phrase occurs: the teaching about the olive tree in Romans 11:16-26.

In my view the tree is basically Israel, rooted in the Abrahamic covenant and its related promises (Ro 9:3-5; He 6:13-18).
When the majority of the nation rejected their Messiah "a hardening befell Israel in part" and as branches they were broken off, with the result that unnatural branches, believing Gentiles, were grafted in, and became thus part of Israel, the olive tree (Eph 2:12-13, 19).

But the consequence of that new development was that the original tree no longer represented national Israel. The Olive had now taken a new shape: the True Israel of God (Ro 9:6-8).

When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [Greek: eiselthè, should come in; the word
saved is not used], that part of the True Israel [the Christian Congregation] finds itself in completeness on the olive tree, obviously ready for the Rapture.

After that God is dealing again exclusively with national Israel.
In the course of the 70th Week the Jews face an ultimate decision: Will they accept at last their true Messiah, Jesus, or will they follow to a catastrophic end the pseudo-Christ?
[The Antichrist, the Man of Lawlessness; 2 Thess 2:3-12]

As foretold a believing Remnant will fulfil the meaning of the name of Isaiah’s son Shear-Jashub and come out of their age-long disobedience and return to JHWH, the Holy One of Israel. And in fulfilment of Ro 11:24 they too will be grafted in.

And in this mysterious way [verse 25 is making mention of a mystery] ALL THE TRUE ISRAEL finds itself on the olive and in a saved position.

18

"All of Israel will be saved" vs JW salvation

by *jeremiah* in

it seems as if the jw religion in general has much contempt for israel.

correctly me if i'm wrong, but,...in short, the jw religion thinks they have become israel,...."spiritual israel", anyways.

or, in other words, the blessings and promises for israel have been transfered to the wts and it's faithful members.. which brings up an interesting question.

jeshurun

I can fully agree with you, Papha

While "all Israel" may include those Gentiles who become spiritual Israelites because of their faith, it also has to include fleshly Israel just as the original prophecies indicated.

The phrase

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved

has troubled many.

The key for solving the problem about ALL ISRAEL, lies in Ro 9:6

It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel
This scripture reveals there is a True Israel, the Israel of God. As verse 8 states:

It is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring

So, the real seed of Abraham consists of children of the promise, also pictured as the New Creation, or The Israel of God (Ga 6:15-16).

That Israel of God will in the end include:
In heaven: The glorified Christian Congregation (1 Thess 4:15-17)
On earth : The newborn Jewish Congregation (Ez 36:24-28; Is 10:21-23)

3

One Parable, Two Appearances

by Doug Mason in

block 1 of teaching material.

block 2 of teaching material.

block 3 of teaching material.

jeshurun

Hi Doug. You wrote:

<< The FDS Parable is not innately eschatological. The requirement for the believer to deliver in accordance with the degree of God’s investment remains true at all times for every believer, not just to the members of the final generation. >>

What do you mean by the final generation? Christians?

In my Topic Who is the Slave? I wrote:

<< As I have tried to prove in this Topic the Church [Christ’s Body] has nothing to do with the Slave of the end-time, because the Slave is not Christian.
He cannot because at the start of the parousia the Church disappears from the earthly scene by being raptured. >>

What is your view in this respect?

42

JW told us: Actually only 800 Annointed left!!

by Lady Liberty in

just recieved a e-mail from a active jw friend.

my mom was talking to a friend from bethal and they were talking about the number of the 144,000 that are left(..... and i talked briefly about this)and how they feel that there are actually less then 800and remember .....i said there had been a talk or something on it?

well i guess it was a wt article that we studied(well i knew i had heard it somewhere!

jeshurun

The doctrine of Perseverance annuls the WTS replacement-theory of unfaithful Anointed Ones.
It is simply not possible that the members of the Body of Christ in Gods purpose should ever be replaced.
Why? Because he brings to a complete finish the good work which he starts when a man/woman receives the new birth (1 Pe 1:3, 23; Phil 1:6; 1 Cor 1:8-9).

That miraculous creation of God enables a formerly "dead" person to believe in Christ and be justified by means of faith.
So, faith is the evidence that God has begotten us anew.
Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God
(1 John 5:1; and compare John 6:44, 65; Romans 5:1; 8:29-30).

In this manner we are effectually called by God.
The letter of Jude is addressed:
To those who have been called, having been loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ.

Now, in the verses 24-25 Jude writes to these called ones:
To him who is able to guard you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy; to the only God our Saviour be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

God is not only able to safeguard Christians from falling away from the faith, but by the indwelling of his spirit he also does his work to cause his elect to persevere. We are not left to ourselves and our assurance is very largely rooted in the sovereign love of God to perform that which he has called us to do. Along this way God enables us to conform to his righteous demands (Ro 8:4)

As was stated by Peter in 1 Pe 1:5
[We] who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

The implication is that God will so work that those whom he has chosen for partaking of Christ’s Body will be enabled by him to persevere in faith to the end and fulfil, by the power of the holy spirit, the requirements for obedience.

Jesus himself promised about his sheep:
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.So, it has not been to Gods honour that the WTS withheld us these great truths by obscuring them.

42

JW told us: Actually only 800 Annointed left!!

by Lady Liberty in

just recieved a e-mail from a active jw friend.

my mom was talking to a friend from bethal and they were talking about the number of the 144,000 that are left(..... and i talked briefly about this)and how they feel that there are actually less then 800and remember .....i said there had been a talk or something on it?

well i guess it was a wt article that we studied(well i knew i had heard it somewhere!

jeshurun

What about those who seemed to be Christian and have gone away from the faith, never to return? The apostle John writes about them:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.John is not teaching that they were really Christians. Rather, they proved, by their failure to persevere, that they were not truly predestined, called, justified, etc (Ro 8:29-30).
As Hebrews 3:14 puts it:

For we have shared in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

That is, our perseverance to the end is the ongoing evidence that we have become a partaker of Christ. If we don’t persevere, then we never had become a partaker of Christ.

An often used scripture to argue the doctrine of Perseverance is Ro 11:20-23

20 But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
What does Paul mean then, speaking as he does to the local Christian congregation in Rome?
Obviously he means that, concerning the branches on the cultivated Olive, there are real, spiritual, inward attachments to the tree, but there are also unreal, unspiritual, outward attachments [to the tree rooted in the Abrahamitic covenant of promise].

If persons give way to arrogance, on-going pride and an anti-Jewish attitude, they show that their attachment is merely external and unspiritual.

The Bible shows that Gods spirit creates in the new Christian a new heart and a desire to seek holiness. Compare Ez 36:25-26 where we find the principles of the New Creation (2 Cor 5:17 and Ga 6:15-16).
Perseverance affirms that a newly converted person truly desires nothing more than obedience to Christ. Holiness and hatred of sin will be a natural desire. A false convert will, soon or later, be uncovered.

Have a look also at Eph 1:13-14 and 4:30

13 But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of truth, the good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance..30 Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom
The words sealed and token [or: pledge] indicate that if a believer is indwelt by the spirit, then his election, calling, justification and glorification are irrevocable (Ro 8:35-39).
Our word pledge (2 Cor 1:22) is the rendering of the Greek word arrabôn, literally meaning “an earnest” which denotes an amount of money which in a purchase is given as a pledge or down payment that the full amount will subsequently be paid. So the spirit’s indwelling is a guarantee that those who are partakers will unquestionably receive the inheritance (Ro 8:17).

42

JW told us: Actually only 800 Annointed left!!

by Lady Liberty in

just recieved a e-mail from a active jw friend.

my mom was talking to a friend from bethal and they were talking about the number of the 144,000 that are left(..... and i talked briefly about this)and how they feel that there are actually less then 800and remember .....i said there had been a talk or something on it?

well i guess it was a wt article that we studied(well i knew i had heard it somewhere!

jeshurun

The concept that Jehovah replaces unfaithful anointed ones by new members of the Body, is another fabrication of WTS imagination.
Take note of Phil 1:6 (NW):

For I am confident of this very thing, that he who started a good work in YOU will carry it to completion until the day of Jesus Christ
God brings the good work which he has started in every individual Christian to a flawless end.
Those whom God calls, he keeps, as stated by Paul in Romans 8:29-30 (NIV):

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Within theological circles this teaching is called The Persevarance of the Saints.
In their own NWT the members of the GB can read this:

He will also make YOU firm to the end, that YOU may be open to no accusation in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Cor 1:8).

Therefore, to the wastebasket with the replacement concept!

14

Who is the Slave?

by jeshurun in

who is the faithful and wise servant of matthew 24:45-47 ?

in his end time discourse jesus stressed his unexpected arrival for judgment.

by telling a range of parables, he impressed that teaching on the mind of his disciples.

jeshurun

It is difficult, even for critical JW and xJW, to see Mt 24:45-47 from another point of view than the WTS has done for decades, impressing her teachings on the minds of many.

Therefore another effort.
As I have tried to prove in this Topic the Church [Christ’s Body] has nothing to do with the Slave of the end-time, because the Slave is not Christian.
He cannot because at the start of the parousia the Church disappears from the earthly scene by being raptured.

Jesus directed his Discourse to the end-time counterparts of his disciples who were at that time not Christians but Messiah professing Jews.
So in the parable there is no Christian oversight in view, but rather Jewish leadership.

It is of interest to note how Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Hebrew Christian Bible teacher, commented on Mt 23:35 – 24:2 (NIV)

35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”.
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings.
2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

<< Israel must call for the Lord to rescue them as a condition for the second coming, based upon Matthew 23:39. Jesus will not come back to the earth until the Jews and the Jewish leaders ask Him to come back. For just as the Jewish leaders led the nation to the rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus, they must some day lead the nation to the acceptance of the Messiahship of Jesus. >>

<< Not only does this passage hold out the certainty of soon judgment, but also the eventual promise of yet to come hope and blessing upon the Jewish nation >>
(Thomas Ice).

<< They would welcome His return with a better Hosanna than that which had greeted His Royal Entry three days before. And this was the 'Farewell' and the parting of Israel's Messiah from Israel and its Temple. Yet a Farewell which promised a coming again; and a parting which implied a welcome in the future from a believing people to a gracious, pardoning King. >>
(Alfred Edersheim)

For that and many other reasons Christ’s eschatological farewell discourse is Jewish directed, and the Slave of 24:45 points to Jewish leadership.
As such they shall revive as Ebed JHWH, the Servant of Jehovah (Is 43:8-12), brought to restoration by the foremost Servant among them, Jesus Christ their Messiah (Is 49:1-6)

14

Who is the Slave?

by jeshurun in

who is the faithful and wise servant of matthew 24:45-47 ?

in his end time discourse jesus stressed his unexpected arrival for judgment.

by telling a range of parables, he impressed that teaching on the mind of his disciples.

jeshurun

No Doug, I did not. But in one commentary I read (translation):

<< It would be very strange that such an important writing be disappeared without a trace.
The theory is also contrary to the established testimony from Antiquity that the Matthew gospel came into existence before that of Mark >>

Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes can especially be applied on Matthew.
Here another example why the Olivet Discourse appeals on a Jewish audience.

Thinking about the parable of the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-46) Timothy Kline wrote:

<< It is also curious that such an important and apparently life-threatening event is
mentioned only in Matthew’s account. Is this due to the audience that the Gospel of
Matthew was written to, namely, the Jews? Why, if this is such an important aspect of the
Truth, is it not discussed in the remaining Gospel accounts? Or even in later letters of
Paul, Peter, or even John? It is difficult to conceive how something so vital is relegated to
a mere 15-verse illustration, yet it will have far-reaching consequences. >>

Kline is surprised how it is possible that the report concerning the separation of the people of the nations at Jesus’ coming in power and great glory (24.30; 25:31-33) - a separation with such far-reaching impact: eternal life or cut off from all life – is presented in only 15 verses.
Actually Kline himself provides the answer: It has to do with the circle of readers to whom the gospel of Matthew originally was addressed: the Jews.

And indeed, the narrative concerning the destination of the nations, is especially for Jewish people something what appeals on their religious background.
Mark for example how Jesus introduces himself when he puts the sheep on his righthand, but the goats on his left:
To the sheep: Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father
To the goats : Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed
On such a moment Jewish people, strongly identifying themselves with their ancestor Abraham and the promises given to him, find themselves on familiar ground!
At his departure from Haran Jehovah blessed that patriarch with the following powerful insurance:

And I will bless those who bless you, and him that calls down evil upon you I shall curse, and all the families of the ground will certainly bless themselves by means of you(Ge 12:3)