Posts by t33ap80c

10

ThirdWitness Wants To Destroy Captives of a Concept

by t33ap80c in

jw
friends

i have had numerous conversations with thirdwitness.

it seems that one of his goals in life is to protect the world from me and my "captives of a concept.".

someone by the name "settingtherecordstraight" has posted many of thirdwitness comments on several webpages, including: .

t33ap80c

Agonus,

ThirdWitness agrees that Russell mistakenly taught that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1874 and that therefore he never watched for Jesus’ parousia to begin in 1914.

But over and over again he makes the following point: "Cameron wants his reader to believe that since they thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 they could not have been watching for Jesus in 1914."

What he does is to switch subjects. I’m talking about Jesus’ return to begin parousia in 1874 but he is talking about Jesus’ return in his Kingdom in 1914.

While it is true that Russell was watching for Jesus to come in his Kingdom and do all kinds of things in 1914, he was not watching his parousia to begin in 1914.

The fact that Jesus didn’t do any of the things that Russell had been watching for him to do doesn’t concern ThirdWitness. His only concern is that Russell had been "watching for Jesus in 1914."

In the book I make it more than clear that whenever I refer to Jesus’ "return" I am ALWAYS referring to his return to begin his parousia either in 1874 or 1914. And so when I have said that Russell never realized that Jesus had returned in 1914, that is the return I am referring to. I tried to explain this to ThirdWitness several times.

But again, he always switches that return I am referring to to a different return and then accuses me of intentionally trying to deceive and mislead.

Does this mean that ThirdWitness is the one who is intentionally trying to deceive and mislead? I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. It may well be that he is so intent on discrediting me and my book that he honestly doesn’t realize that he has to ‘cheat’ to do it. Even when it is pointed out that what he is doing is ‘illegal’ he still is unable to see it.

The apostle Paul mentioned how God can let "an operation of error" go to those who have not accepted "the love of the truth" so that "they may get to believing lie." - 2 Thessalonians 2:10,11

Of course I have no way of knowing if this is how God is dealing with ThirdWitness. But there does seem to be a whole lot of "operation of error" going on in his thinking. Something is allowing it to happen.

Don Cameron

10

ThirdWitness Wants To Destroy Captives of a Concept

by t33ap80c in

jw
friends

i have had numerous conversations with thirdwitness.

it seems that one of his goals in life is to protect the world from me and my "captives of a concept.".

someone by the name "settingtherecordstraight" has posted many of thirdwitness comments on several webpages, including: .

t33ap80c

I have had numerous ‘conversations’ with ThirdWitness. It seems that one of his goals in life is to protect the world from me and my "Captives of a Concept."

Someone by the name "SettingTheRecordStraight" has posted many of ThirdWitness’ comments on several webpages, including:

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/03/chapter-1-the-concept-reviewed/#comment-75

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/chapter-4-matthew-2447-most-important-event-in-watchtower-history-reviewed/#comment-85

So far STRS has allowed me to comment on many of ThirdWitness’ statements. He and ThirdWitness have not attempted to respond yet. Here is one of my responses to what ThirdWitness has said about me and the book:

I said, "STRS – You (or more likely ThirdWitness) said, 'Cameron argues since the Society believed 1874 marked Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore, in 1914 they could not have been on the watch for Jesus and his Kingdom. Is this true?'"

"No. This is not true! Once again you and ThirdWitness are misrepresenting what I am saying in the book.

"What I do argue is that since the Society believed 1874 marked THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore in 1914 they could not have been on the watch FOR THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ invisible presence.

"I assume that you, ThirdWitness and even someone from the planet Mars would agree with my actual argument.

"But for whatever reason you and ThirdWitness misrepresent my actual argument and then say, "Either (1) Cameron purposely lied about Russell and Rutherford not knowing the 1914 date, or (2) Cameron is ignorant of the very facts he has claimed to have studied in depth. Either way it doesn’t look good for him."

"But when it realized that you (or more likely ThirdWitness) have changed my argument to make it appear that I lied and/or am ignorant of ‘the facts’ then who does it not look good for?"

Don Cameron

Note to JWD: ThirdWitness has done this several times. So far when I have tried to point out to him that what he is doing is not ethical he simipliy denies doing it and then keeps right on doing it.

25

Captives of a Concept

by dgp in

i'm reading "captives of a concept", by don cameron.

cameron holds that the one thing that keeps jehovah's witnesses prisoners in the watchtower is the idea that they are in "god's organization", and, therefore, the right thing to do, in spite of what one sees, is to stay within it.

cameron also says that those jehovah's witnesses who become convinced that the watchtower is not god's organization eventually leave.

t33ap80c

Dgp,

Correction:

The firsit line of my above post should read, "At the end of your original post you asked…"

Sorry about that.

Don Cameron

25

Captives of a Concept

by dgp in

i'm reading "captives of a concept", by don cameron.

cameron holds that the one thing that keeps jehovah's witnesses prisoners in the watchtower is the idea that they are in "god's organization", and, therefore, the right thing to do, in spite of what one sees, is to stay within it.

cameron also says that those jehovah's witnesses who become convinced that the watchtower is not god's organization eventually leave.

t33ap80c

Dgp,

At the end of your post your original you asked…

"So, again, according to the Watchtower, how is Jesus supposed to have manifested his believing that what was then the Watchtower was "the faithful and discreet slave"?

Could you rephrase that for me? I don’t seem to be able to understand your question the way it is asked above.

Thanks,

Don Cameron

5

Ordering a Don Cameron book from Lulu.com

by stichione in

jw
friends

hi all.. anyone else purchase a book from lulu.com?

was it a positive or negative experience?.

i ordered captives of a concept by don cameron back in january, and i never received the book.

t33ap80c

Hi stichione,

I just read about your problem ordering "Captives of a Concept." If you can give me your e-mail address I will send the PDF version to you.

You can e-mail me at - [email protected]

Don Cameron

41

Site To Refute Franz And Cameron

by Bangalore in

i found this site set up by a loyal jw who wants to refute books like "crisis of conscience" and "captives of a concept".

i thought loyal jw's were not even supposed to read such books.. .

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/.

t33ap80c

TW said, "Christ’s presence is not a "past event" or something that has "already happened."

But THE BEGINNING of Christ’s presence is a "past event." The beginning of Christ’s presence is something that has "already happened." Jehovah’s Witnesses are not looking for Christ’s invisible presence to begin because they believe it already began in 1914.

TW then asked, "How is it that the Bible Students missed his presence? Maybe Cameron can answer that for us."

Answer: If Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1914 the Bible Students missed that event because they believed it had already begun in 1874. In the same way, if Jesus’ parousia began yesterday then TW would have missed it because he believes that the beginning of Jesus’ invisible presence already happened in 1914.

Don Cameron

41

Site To Refute Franz And Cameron

by Bangalore in

i found this site set up by a loyal jw who wants to refute books like "crisis of conscience" and "captives of a concept".

i thought loyal jw's were not even supposed to read such books.. .

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/.

t33ap80c

In my book on page 24 I said…

"If Jesus did return in 1914, neither President Russell nor President Rutherford ever knew it."

I was specifically referring to Jesus’ return TO BEGIN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE IN 1874.

And that according to the Proclaimers book the Society didn’t change the date to 1914 until 1943. And since Russell died in 1916 and Rutherford died in 1942 then neither man ever knew that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1914.

But once again ThirdWitness (or whoever he is) changed the return I was talking about from the return of Jesus to begin his parousia in 1874 to a different return that has nothing to do with 1874. He said…

"Actually President Russell and Rutherford both believed that Christ would return in 1914."

But according to the Proclaimers book they never believed that Christ would return in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS PAROUSIA. (I assume TW knows this.)

When I dealt with TW in the past I noticed that it is very difficult for him to not switch the subject. He does it so often that, again, I think it is possible that he no longer realizes when he does it.

Don Cameron

41

Site To Refute Franz And Cameron

by Bangalore in

i found this site set up by a loyal jw who wants to refute books like "crisis of conscience" and "captives of a concept".

i thought loyal jw's were not even supposed to read such books.. .

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/.

t33ap80c

In the book I said, "One of the things that makes the Watchtower’s organizational concept so powerful is that nobody notices that it is ‘in fact, the dominant, controlling force’ in their decision-making process."

"Setting The Record Straight" then said, " Well, ‘nobody notices’ because this simply isn’t true."

That just goes to prove my point. Even ‘Setting’doesn’t notice it!

But why is it that Jehovah’s Witnesses are so willing to stop or start believing something the moment the Society stops or starts teaching it? What is the dominant, controlling force in their decision-making process?

It isn’t because they believe that Jesus is the Christ or even that Jehovah is God. Rather it is because they believe that "the Society is God’s organization." That’s the way it was when I was a Witness. I assume it still works the same way today.

Don Cameron

41

Site To Refute Franz And Cameron

by Bangalore in

i found this site set up by a loyal jw who wants to refute books like "crisis of conscience" and "captives of a concept".

i thought loyal jw's were not even supposed to read such books.. .

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/.

t33ap80c

Some comments from Don Cameron...

The author said, "(Cameron) argues since the Society believed 1874 marked Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore, in 1914 they could not have been on the watch for Jesus and his Kingdom. Is this true?"

What I notice is that the above author has changed my argument in order to prove that I was mistaken.

What I actually said is that since the Society believed that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1874 they would not have been on the watch for his invisible presence to begin in 1914. That still seems reasonable to me. In the same way today they are not on the watch for Jesus’ invisible presence to begin because today they believe it already began in 1914.

But the author changed the subject from "the beginning of Jesus’ invisible presence in 1874" to being "on the watch for Jesus and his Kingdom in 1914."

While it is true that the Society was on the watch for Jesus to come in his Kingdom and destroy all earthly governments at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914, they were not on the watch for Jesus’ invisible presence to begin in 1914.

I think it is possible that the author is so intent on proving me wrong that that he doesn’t realize he has done this.

Don Cameron

P.S. I wonder if this person is ThirdWitnetss? Sure sounds like him.

49

Ray Franz Views of "Information Control" by WT Society Agree with Hassan

by flipper in

jw
friends

having read ray franz's " crisis of conscience " 3 years ago -before i read steve hassan's 2 books on mind control - my wife and i thought it would be good to re-read ray's " crisis " book again now that we know more about the workings of " cult mind control".

we just finished chapter 2 and i noticed striking similarities i thought i would share.. notice this quote in " crisis of conscience " on pg.

28 & 29 by franz , " thus numerous factors that are relatively common knowledge in many religious organizations are known only vaguely , if at all, by the vast majority of jehovah's witnesses.

t33ap80c

Happy Guy,

You said, "I think it is unwise to believe everything Franz says just because he say so."

Can you give an example or two of something Ray Franz has said that you feel would be "unwise to believe"? Or that it would be wise for us to disbelieve?

Don Cameron