Posts by t33ap80c

56

has this been on the site before? about there never having claimed to be a prophet?

by booby in

*** w72 4/1 p. 200 they shall know that a prophet was among them' ***.

yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a "prophet" of jehovah was among them.

actually now more than a million and a half persons are helping that collective or composite "prophet" in his preaching work and well over that number of others are studying the bible with the "prophet" group and its companions..

t33ap80c

It still seems fair to me that (1) Since the Society does claim to be spirit-directed, and (2) since they claim to be uninspired, and (3) since they claim to be or act as God’s only living true prophet on earth today, that therefore they do in fact claim to be God’s "spirit-directed uninspired true prophet."

Perhaps Elder-Patrol would agree if it was expressed the following way: "The Society claims to be Jehovah’s "spirit-directed uninspired true prophet who has made mistakes."

A point I try to make in the book is that even if Russell and Rutherford did not fit the Bible’s definition (or even their own definition) of a false prophet or a false teacher, they were still guilty of providing an awful lot of 'wrong spiritual food at the wrong time' on very important matters down till 1919.

And according to former President Frederick Franz in is "God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached," that spiritual food would have disqualified them as being Jesus’ "faithful and discreet slave."

And according to Franz, if Russell, Rutherford and their associates did not qualify as Jesus’ "slave" then, it means that the Governing Body and their associates do not qualify as Jesus’ "slave" now.

My suggestion to Elder-Patrol is to (1) make sure that he understands the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 as explained by President Franz, and then (2) take a serious look at the what the Society had been providing in the way of spiritual food down till 1919. He needs to look at those teachings the way Jesus would have looked at them then rather than the way the Society looks at them now.

If he does those things and then concludes that Jesus would have been pleased enough to give them that Matthew 24:47 appointment "over all his earthly interests" in the spring of 1919, then that’s that what he will believe.

But as for me and many others who finally looked at what the Society had been teaching for ourselves, we have concluded the same thing that Ray Franz did after he examined that "food" in 1979…

"It would be an insult to Christ Jesus to say that he selected the Society on the basis of what it had been teaching as of 1919."

Don Cameron

5

Reminder About Copyright

by t33ap80c in

jw
friends

lately i've noticed that some have been offering to e-mail the pdf download version of "captives of a concept" to anyone requesting it.. apparently those doing this do not realize this is both unethical and illegal.

see important information about the us copyright law at .

http://www.copyright.gov/for those who have not been able to afford the $7 for the book i have always e-mailed the pdf version to them at no charge.

t33ap80c

Lately I've noticed that some have been offering to e-mail the PDF download version of "Captives of a Concept" to anyone requesting it. Apparently those doing this do not realize this is both unethical and illegal. See important information about the US Copyright Law at

http://www.copyright.gov/

For those who have not been able to afford the $7 for the book I have always e-mailed the PDF version to them at no charge. For those who would like to recommend the book please refer them to either

www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com or have them e-mail me at [email protected]

I don't mean to make a big issue of this matter but I would think that those who have mistakenly e-mailed illegal copies of the book will want to know this so that they can correct their mistake.

Please let me know if there are any questions about this matter.

Don Cameron
CaptivesOfaConcept.com

[email protected]

40

The fundamental flaw with the WTBTS as "God's Organization"?

by Essan in

there are countless issues that people have with the society and which together have led to many people realizing that it is not what it claims and pretends to be.

these include things like the secret un affiliation, contradictory and hypocritical stances, (malawi vs mexico vs un/ngo), the ever changing blood policy and ever changing doctrine, failed predictions for armageddon etc, etc, etc.. but what is the consensus about what the fundamental flaw is?.

what i mean is, many jw's hear about these various issues and manage to make endless excuses for them, even though this involves gross hypocrisy and excusing the society for things they would never excuse in other religions and which the society itself has ruthless condemned other religions for over almost 100 years.

t33ap80c

Startingover,

You asked if "Captives of a Concept" says that same thing that you believe about the Society not being "God’s organization."

Yes it does!

In fact it refers to that "fundamental belief" as the only thing that really needs to be known about the Watchtower religion. Among other things the book says this...

"Jehovah’s Witnesses realize that the foundation cornerstone of the Christian religion is that "Jesus is the Christ." What they don’t realize is that the foundation cornerstone of their religion is that "the Watchtower Society is God's organization." Everything always comes back to the question, not "Is Jesus the Christ?" but "Is the Watchtower Society God’s organization?"

"The purpose of this study has been to identify the above 'stone' and then remove it by understanding the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 and then holding them to it while examining the organization’s history that relates to their interpretation."

"Once this is done it destroys the foundation upon which the Watchtower religion rests. Witnesses who are willing to face the result of such an examination are then able to let go of the illusionary concept that has been holding them captive."

Don Cameron CaptivesOfaConcept.com

10

ThirdWitness Wants To Destroy Captives of a Concept

by t33ap80c in

jw
friends

i have had numerous conversations with thirdwitness.

it seems that one of his goals in life is to protect the world from me and my "captives of a concept.".

someone by the name "settingtherecordstraight" has posted many of thirdwitness comments on several webpages, including: .

t33ap80c

Agonus,

ThirdWitness agrees that Russell mistakenly taught that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1874 and that therefore he never watched for Jesus’ parousia to begin in 1914.

But over and over again he makes the following point: "Cameron wants his reader to believe that since they thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 they could not have been watching for Jesus in 1914."

What he does is to switch subjects. I’m talking about Jesus’ return to begin parousia in 1874 but he is talking about Jesus’ return in his Kingdom in 1914.

While it is true that Russell was watching for Jesus to come in his Kingdom and do all kinds of things in 1914, he was not watching his parousia to begin in 1914.

The fact that Jesus didn’t do any of the things that Russell had been watching for him to do doesn’t concern ThirdWitness. His only concern is that Russell had been "watching for Jesus in 1914."

In the book I make it more than clear that whenever I refer to Jesus’ "return" I am ALWAYS referring to his return to begin his parousia either in 1874 or 1914. And so when I have said that Russell never realized that Jesus had returned in 1914, that is the return I am referring to. I tried to explain this to ThirdWitness several times.

But again, he always switches that return I am referring to to a different return and then accuses me of intentionally trying to deceive and mislead.

Does this mean that ThirdWitness is the one who is intentionally trying to deceive and mislead? I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. It may well be that he is so intent on discrediting me and my book that he honestly doesn’t realize that he has to ‘cheat’ to do it. Even when it is pointed out that what he is doing is ‘illegal’ he still is unable to see it.

The apostle Paul mentioned how God can let "an operation of error" go to those who have not accepted "the love of the truth" so that "they may get to believing lie." - 2 Thessalonians 2:10,11

Of course I have no way of knowing if this is how God is dealing with ThirdWitness. But there does seem to be a whole lot of "operation of error" going on in his thinking. Something is allowing it to happen.

Don Cameron

10

ThirdWitness Wants To Destroy Captives of a Concept

by t33ap80c in

jw
friends

i have had numerous conversations with thirdwitness.

it seems that one of his goals in life is to protect the world from me and my "captives of a concept.".

someone by the name "settingtherecordstraight" has posted many of thirdwitness comments on several webpages, including: .

t33ap80c

I have had numerous ‘conversations’ with ThirdWitness. It seems that one of his goals in life is to protect the world from me and my "Captives of a Concept."

Someone by the name "SettingTheRecordStraight" has posted many of ThirdWitness’ comments on several webpages, including:

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/03/chapter-1-the-concept-reviewed/#comment-75

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/chapter-4-matthew-2447-most-important-event-in-watchtower-history-reviewed/#comment-85

So far STRS has allowed me to comment on many of ThirdWitness’ statements. He and ThirdWitness have not attempted to respond yet. Here is one of my responses to what ThirdWitness has said about me and the book:

I said, "STRS – You (or more likely ThirdWitness) said, 'Cameron argues since the Society believed 1874 marked Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore, in 1914 they could not have been on the watch for Jesus and his Kingdom. Is this true?'"

"No. This is not true! Once again you and ThirdWitness are misrepresenting what I am saying in the book.

"What I do argue is that since the Society believed 1874 marked THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore in 1914 they could not have been on the watch FOR THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ invisible presence.

"I assume that you, ThirdWitness and even someone from the planet Mars would agree with my actual argument.

"But for whatever reason you and ThirdWitness misrepresent my actual argument and then say, "Either (1) Cameron purposely lied about Russell and Rutherford not knowing the 1914 date, or (2) Cameron is ignorant of the very facts he has claimed to have studied in depth. Either way it doesn’t look good for him."

"But when it realized that you (or more likely ThirdWitness) have changed my argument to make it appear that I lied and/or am ignorant of ‘the facts’ then who does it not look good for?"

Don Cameron

Note to JWD: ThirdWitness has done this several times. So far when I have tried to point out to him that what he is doing is not ethical he simipliy denies doing it and then keeps right on doing it.

25

Captives of a Concept

by dgp in

i'm reading "captives of a concept", by don cameron.

cameron holds that the one thing that keeps jehovah's witnesses prisoners in the watchtower is the idea that they are in "god's organization", and, therefore, the right thing to do, in spite of what one sees, is to stay within it.

cameron also says that those jehovah's witnesses who become convinced that the watchtower is not god's organization eventually leave.

t33ap80c

Dgp,

Correction:

The firsit line of my above post should read, "At the end of your original post you asked…"

Sorry about that.

Don Cameron

25

Captives of a Concept

by dgp in

i'm reading "captives of a concept", by don cameron.

cameron holds that the one thing that keeps jehovah's witnesses prisoners in the watchtower is the idea that they are in "god's organization", and, therefore, the right thing to do, in spite of what one sees, is to stay within it.

cameron also says that those jehovah's witnesses who become convinced that the watchtower is not god's organization eventually leave.

t33ap80c

Dgp,

At the end of your post your original you asked…

"So, again, according to the Watchtower, how is Jesus supposed to have manifested his believing that what was then the Watchtower was "the faithful and discreet slave"?

Could you rephrase that for me? I don’t seem to be able to understand your question the way it is asked above.

Thanks,

Don Cameron

5

Ordering a Don Cameron book from Lulu.com

by stichione in

jw
friends

hi all.. anyone else purchase a book from lulu.com?

was it a positive or negative experience?.

i ordered captives of a concept by don cameron back in january, and i never received the book.

t33ap80c

Hi stichione,

I just read about your problem ordering "Captives of a Concept." If you can give me your e-mail address I will send the PDF version to you.

You can e-mail me at - [email protected]

Don Cameron

41

Site To Refute Franz And Cameron

by Bangalore in

i found this site set up by a loyal jw who wants to refute books like "crisis of conscience" and "captives of a concept".

i thought loyal jw's were not even supposed to read such books.. .

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/.

t33ap80c

TW said, "Christ’s presence is not a "past event" or something that has "already happened."

But THE BEGINNING of Christ’s presence is a "past event." The beginning of Christ’s presence is something that has "already happened." Jehovah’s Witnesses are not looking for Christ’s invisible presence to begin because they believe it already began in 1914.

TW then asked, "How is it that the Bible Students missed his presence? Maybe Cameron can answer that for us."

Answer: If Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1914 the Bible Students missed that event because they believed it had already begun in 1874. In the same way, if Jesus’ parousia began yesterday then TW would have missed it because he believes that the beginning of Jesus’ invisible presence already happened in 1914.

Don Cameron

41

Site To Refute Franz And Cameron

by Bangalore in

i found this site set up by a loyal jw who wants to refute books like "crisis of conscience" and "captives of a concept".

i thought loyal jw's were not even supposed to read such books.. .

http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/2010/01/.

t33ap80c

In my book on page 24 I said…

"If Jesus did return in 1914, neither President Russell nor President Rutherford ever knew it."

I was specifically referring to Jesus’ return TO BEGIN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENCE IN 1874.

And that according to the Proclaimers book the Society didn’t change the date to 1914 until 1943. And since Russell died in 1916 and Rutherford died in 1942 then neither man ever knew that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1914.

But once again ThirdWitness (or whoever he is) changed the return I was talking about from the return of Jesus to begin his parousia in 1874 to a different return that has nothing to do with 1874. He said…

"Actually President Russell and Rutherford both believed that Christ would return in 1914."

But according to the Proclaimers book they never believed that Christ would return in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS PAROUSIA. (I assume TW knows this.)

When I dealt with TW in the past I noticed that it is very difficult for him to not switch the subject. He does it so often that, again, I think it is possible that he no longer realizes when he does it.

Don Cameron