t33ap80c

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Posts by t33ap80c

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  6

  Any suggestions

  by bobld in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what would someone type in google on the internet to direct that person to a site that was honest about the watchtower.if they just type in watchtower or jehovah's witnesses it will direct them the the wt.org which i don't want.i want them to go directly to such sites as freeminds.org.jwn or something like that.there are to many sites that would take them on a wild goose chase.i want them to go directly to the cheeze on this cult.. b.

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  t33ap80c

  Google Search: Captives of a Concept
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  44

  Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book

  by t33ap80c in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while it is true that the "proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the society claim to being god's organization.

  it's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.. take for example the extremely important matter of the second coming of christ.... on the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how president charles russell came to believe that jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his second coming ("invisible presence").

  and then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.. it is likely that even if some witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means.

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  t33ap80c

  gorbatchov,

  Do you (or anyone else) know what, if anything, the new DVD says about Matthew 24:45-47?

  Don
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  44

  Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book

  by t33ap80c in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while it is true that the "proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the society claim to being god's organization.

  it's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.. take for example the extremely important matter of the second coming of christ.... on the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how president charles russell came to believe that jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his second coming ("invisible presence").

  and then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.. it is likely that even if some witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means.

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  t33ap80c

  TD,

  You said, "My experience is that JW's will pounce on anything they believe is less than accurate as an excuse to dismiss everything else you say."

  That's my experiece too.

  But is it less than accurate to conclude that the footnote on page 133 of the Proclaimers book is acknowledging that the date of 1874 was changed to 1914 in 1943?

  What about my related footnote where I said, "NO TE: There is some evidence that Rutherford first mentioned 1914 as the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming in the 1930s." From what you pointed out, that statement is accurate.

  How about when I said, " But the Proclaimers book doesn’t mention any date prior to 1943." That is accurate.

  A nd finally I concluded: " Either way it wouldn’t make any difference (if the date was changed in the 1930s or 1943) because the change of date was made long after Jesus’ (food-at-the-proper-time) examination was over." That is accurate.

  Will such an explanation above make any difference to a Witness who is not yet ready to face the truth about the Watchtower Society? My experience is that it will not make any difference even if they cannot see anything that is not accurate.

  Don
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  44

  Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book

  by t33ap80c in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while it is true that the "proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the society claim to being god's organization.

  it's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.. take for example the extremely important matter of the second coming of christ.... on the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how president charles russell came to believe that jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his second coming ("invisible presence").

  and then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.. it is likely that even if some witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means.

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  t33ap80c

  Agonus,

  You quoted the "Out Of Darkness" video where it said, ""The Bible Students were coming to the realization that Christ's Presence began in 1914..."

  You then asked, "Is it safe to say that the above documentation proves this statement to be a conclusive falsehood, or just extremely misleading?"

  It seems to be an example of the video producer's ability to say something that is true but that misleads the reader in the process. Watchtower writers have always had this ability. I suspect he got that quote from a Watchtower publication. Perhaps he got it from the Proclaimers book.

  The above statement doesn't allow the reader to notice that Russell never came to the above realization. And according to the Proclaimers book Rutherford didn't either.

  Don Cameron
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  44

  Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book

  by t33ap80c in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while it is true that the "proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the society claim to being god's organization.

  it's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.. take for example the extremely important matter of the second coming of christ.... on the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how president charles russell came to believe that jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his second coming ("invisible presence").

  and then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.. it is likely that even if some witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means.

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  t33ap80c

  TD,

  You said to me, "I honestly don't understand the strategic advantage of putting ammunition in the hands of JW apologists."

  Please explain what you meant.

  Don
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  44

  Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book

  by t33ap80c in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while it is true that the "proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the society claim to being god's organization.

  it's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.. take for example the extremely important matter of the second coming of christ.... on the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how president charles russell came to believe that jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his second coming ("invisible presence").

  and then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.. it is likely that even if some witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means.

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  t33ap80c

  Hello TD.

  You said, "I don't believe the footnote on page 133 of Proclaimers says anything about the change from 1874 to 1914 for the date of Christ's return."

  In my footnote #38 on page 22 of "Captives of a Concept" I am referring to that footnote on page 133 of the "Proclaimers" book...

  "The footnote refers to the 1943 book The Truth Shall Make You Free that changed the date of Jesus’ return from 1874 to 1914. Page 209 of God’s Kingdom of a Thousand YearsHas Approached refers to this same 1943 book where the Society’s new understanding of the end of six thousand years of man’s existence "did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ."

  While it is true that the footnote doesn't actually say "The date 1874 was changed to 1914 in 1943," isn't that what the footnote is saying without actually saying it? Isn't that what the footnote means?

  You said, " A careful reading of the sources cited in the footnote shows that they are only talking about the 100 year adjustment for the 7th millennium." But it was that adjustment in the 1943 bookThe Truth Shall Make You Free that "did away with the year 1874."

  That's what I see when I 'carefully read' the footnote on page 133 of the "Proclaimers" book.

  What about the reference you provided from the Watchtower December 1, 1933 p. 362) where it indicates the date of Jesus' return was changed to 1914 in 1933?

  In my same footnote #38 on page 22 I explained...

  "NOTE: There is some evidence that Rutherford first mentioned 1914 as the beginning of Christ’s Second Coming in the 1930s. But the Proclaimers book doesn’t mention any date prior to 1943. Either way it wouldn’t make any difference because the change of date was made long after Jesus’ examination (in 1918-1919) was over."

  The point I try to make in the book is that whether the change in date was made in 1943 or any time after Jesus' examination was over, it was too late. The time to pass an exam is when it is given not 14 years (1933) or 24 years (1943) after it is over. And according to the Society their food-at-the-proper-time exam was over in 1919. - "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Appproached" pp 349-355

  One of the things the 1933 date changes is that the Society had announced the wrong date of 1874 for 57 years instead of 67 years. Would that have made any difference to Jesus or his Father if they where making sure the Society had been faithfully and discreetly proving the right spiritual food at the proper time? I guess it is a judgement call. For me, I don't think it would have made any difference.

  I hope the above comments provide some answers to the issues you brought up.

  Don Cameron
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  44

  Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book

  by t33ap80c in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while it is true that the "proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the society claim to being god's organization.

  it's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.. take for example the extremely important matter of the second coming of christ.... on the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how president charles russell came to believe that jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his second coming ("invisible presence").

  and then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.. it is likely that even if some witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means.

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  t33ap80c

  While it is true that the "Proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the Society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the Society claim to being God's organization. It's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.

  Take for example the extremely important matter of the Second Coming of Christ...

  On the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how President Charles Russell came to believe that Jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his Second Coming ("invisible presence"). And then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of Jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.

  It is likely that even if some Witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means. I think it is possible that even the men of the Governing Body do not get the sense of what it means.

  Here are several very important things that one fact means...

  1) Since Russell died in 1916 and Rutherford died in 1942 it therefore means that if Jesus did in fact return in 1914, the Society's' first two presidents never knew it. It seems fair to wonder why God never allowed the most prominent men in 'His organization' to ever know when his Son had returned.

  2) If Jesus returned in 1914 it means the Society announced the wrong date of his return (1874) for 67 years. (Russell began to announce the 1874 date in 1876.) How "faithful" or "discreet" was that?

  3) Luke's account (12:36,37) says that when Jesus returned his faithful slaves were to be found waiting and watching for his return. But in 1914 they were not waiting or watching for his return because they believed he had already returned 40 years earlier.

  4) Jesus said that on his arrival and knocking they were to "at once open to him." But if they didn't know he had arrived in 1914 until 1943 that means he would have had to knock for 29 years before they opened to him.

  5)For 35 years from 1879 to 1914 the Watch Tower magazine was announcing that Jesus was invisibly present when he wasn't - "Herald of Christ's Presence"

  What these things help to show is that what was going on in the organization's history doesn't match up with Jesus' illustration or the Society's interpretation of it. And since they don't agree it brings into question their claim to having received the appointment mentioned in Matthew 24:47. For according to the Society's interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47, without that appointment in 1919 there is no way the Society could be God's organization in 2011. - See "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached" pp. 349-355

  There are several other things the "Proclaimers" book truthfully says that also bring into question the Society's claim to being "God's faithful and discreet slave organization." Again, it is a matter of knowing what to look for and where to find it.

  Another reason I recommend the "Proclaimers" book is because it is still current. It is the Society's most up to date version of the organization's history. Therefore Witnesses do not automatically dismiss what it says as "old light" as they do with Russell's s "Studies in the Scriptures" or Rutherford's "The Finish Mystery."

  The above are some of the reasons why "Captives of a Concept" recommends using the "Proclaimers" book as a Watchtower history study aid. Witnesses who will sincerely try to help those who ask about that history may end up teaching themselves that truth about it and in the process get the sense of what it means. i.e. The Watchtower Society has never been God's organization. - Romans 2:21

  Don Cameron
  [email protected]
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  6

  Favorite Quotes

  by t33ap80c in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i got the following quote from ros over at beacon.... "you cannot change someone's mind by proving that they are wrong.".

  don cameron.

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  t33ap80c

  I got the following quote from Ros over at Beacon...

  "You cannot change someone's mind by proving that they are wrong."

  Don Cameron
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  The Latest "KNOCKING" Press Relese Dated 01/02/2011

  by t33ap80c in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this press release correctly states that "accurate information on jehovah's witnesses is available but you need to know where to find it.

  " that is true.

  but equally true is the need to know what to look for.

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  t33ap80c

  www.news2business.com/daily-news/4256/

  This press release correctly states that "accurate information on Jehovah's Witnesses is available but you need to know WHERE TO FIND IT." That is true. But equally true is the need to know WHAT TO LOOK FOR. -

  Unfortunately the producers of "KNOCKING" apparently (1) do not know what to look for, or (2) where to find the most important accurate information about the Watchtower Society's claim to being "God's organization" - His sole "channel of communication" to all mankind.

  The very first statement on their www.knocking.org website says this: "KNOCKING opens the door on Jehovah's Witnesses." But it never opens the door to this most important "God's organization" teaching that is based on their interpretation of the most important Scripture in their theology - Matthew 24:45-47.

  They say: "The Knocking.org main page presents a 10,000-plus word article that covers nearly every facet of the topic of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is the most complete article on Jehovah's Witnesses that is available on the Internet."

  But none of those 10,000-plus words try to explain why or how the Watchtower Society ended up being God's organization. In contrast, the 20,000-plus word book "Captives of a Concept" opens that door wide open so that the reader can know whether or not to go through it.

  Don Cameron
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  144

  Ray Franz Was Wrong

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  god rest his soul.

  although i never met him personally, he and i did correspond a number of times, and i have numerous friends who have not only met him, but stayed several days with he and cynthia at their home.

  if nothing else, ray was kind, non-judging, and generous.

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  t33ap80c

  Here are some of my thoughts on this matter from "Captives of a Concept":

  "How is it possible for such men (of the Governing Body) to be anything but completely truthful with those who depend on them for all of their "direction and guidance in matters of worship"?

  "The first answer that may come to mind is that the Society’s religious leaders are no different than the religious leaders of Jesus’ day whom he said were ‘hypocrites, serpents, and offspring of vipers.’ But there is something that the apostle Paul said that might be an alternative explanation that doesn’t necessarily require these men to be hypocrites, serpents or offspring of vipers…

  'Because they did not accept the love of the truth... t hat is why God lets an operation of error go to them that they may get to believing the lie. -Thessalonians 2:10,11 " Only God knows if this is how He has been dealing with these men, but if this is what is going on it would explain a lot. Once they 'get to believing the lie' (that the Society is God's organization) then the lie becomes the truth in their minds. And once that happens it doesn’t matter what the Bible says or what went on in the Society’s history. Nothing will be allowed to disprove the lie.

  "Anything that is contrary to it will either be ignored, as is done throughout their Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom book, or else it will be manipulated to force it to apparently fit the lie, as is also done throughout their Proclaimers book.And yet they will do these things while thinking they are being candid in their efforts to uphold the truth.

  "Apparently this is one of the strange ways the human mind is capable of working when 'God lets an operation of error go to them that they may get to believing the lie.'"

  In my book I tend to lean toward this way of viewing the men of the Governing Body and then leave it up to God decide what He is going to do with them. This way of looking at these men doesn't excuse what they do but it may help to explain why they do it.

  Don Cameron