Posts by flower

24

How Spiritual Are You? -- A 20-question true/false test from TIME magazine

by Gopher in

jw
friends

the new time magazine has a story called "the god gene", which suggests that the need for god is built into our genes, and may have possibly evolved.

wouldn't that be ironic?

anyhow, here's the quiz.

flower

developed by Washington University psychiatrist Robert Cloninger, author of Feeling Good: The Science of Well-Being

I feel bad for the patients of this psychiatrist.

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

flower

Brad, I didnt think I was being hostile or insulting in my responses. If you want to 'discuss' the subject of suicide I like to discuss subjects that are very near and dear to me such as this. But I refuse to trade insults. If you were insulted by something I said it was unintentional. What I said was based on the statments you were making.

I am not completely against suicide. I think if they want to do it, they will find a way anyway, so why not let them? From what most peoples' opinions are they are beyond help other than helping themselves anyway. However, at what point do we lay the law down, so to speak, to prevent them from hurting others, especially the children? Maybe we should focus less on helping the suicidal people and spend the time and money SOLEY on the victims of suicide.

You cannot make comments like that and expect not to have anyone comment on it or give their opinion. That is all I did when I said....

Most support assistance is in place to prevent the act from happening in the first place which IMO makes a lot more sense than saying 'forget about them, they are as good as dead anyway but after they do it lets have lots more support for those left behind'. That is in essence what your previous post mentioned

You call my comments "insinuating that your opinion is that we shouldnt care about preventing it or caring about people who attempt it". That I am "throwing insults". I have no idea where you see that in my post but everyone interprets things differently I suppose. You are the one who made those statements in bold.

Doubtfully Yours makes a point, that people who don't succeed are just making a cry for help. I'm sure that many people out here can attest to that point being true as well. Instead of accepting that point as being legit you try to refute it by showing that when you didn't succeed, it wasn't because you didn't do your best

If you read what I actually said I first acknowledged that this was true in some cases. However, the comment she made was pretty general and final. She simply said "If someone means to exit they will succeed". I just wanted her to know that there are exceptions to that statement. More often than not people attempt suicide because they want to die. Its not refuting her point...its accepting her point but adding my own example to show that its not always the case. I hope that helps you to see the difference.

This "topic", however, is not about prevention, it's about the "after the fact", irregardless of the circumstances.

I qualified an earlier post of mine by saying that I hadnt had time to read through all the responses. I was commenting solely on the question in the original post which asked how we view people who attempt or commit suicide. As I already said my answer would be different if you asked about those 'left behind'. I can and do sympathize with both sides.

you are questioning everybody's viewpoint that is not EXACTLY like yours. What's that saying about the kettle and the teapot?

If that is how you see the discussion you are entitled. I see it as a back and forth conversation where I have agreed with you on some points and not on others and where you have done the same. Usually when people disagree with something they tell why they disagree and give their own opinion based on the facts as they see them. That is what I was doing. Accusing me of lacking empathy based on what I posted in this thread couldnt be farther from the truth. I'm actually one of the most empathetic people you'd ever meet. Since you seem to have only skimmed my posts for something I disagreed with you on here are some of the other things I said..just a few.

Brad, I didnt have a chance to read your post but I am sorry if my answer to the question of the title upset you

I feel extremely bad for you and any other victim of that kind of emotional abuse.

I certainly understand and feel very badly for you for your experiences

I think someone who might be feeling the same way your mother did inside should hear stories from people like you and Brad who can give them another perspective on the situation especially if they have children as young as you guys were

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

flower

((((((Dede)))))) I'm glad you shared that. I think someone who might be feeling the same way your mother did inside should hear stories from people like you and Brad who can give them another perspective on the situation especially if they have children as young as you guys were.

I'm glad you got past your guilt at being angry. After all, anger is a normal phase of recovery.

It really is difficult for everyone involved. I agree that whether someone is just talking about suicide or attempting it no matter how sincere the attempt is, action needs to be taken.

The problem with JW's is that so often they ignore the fact that someone may need professional help. They arent qualified to help people emotionally and so they ignore it.

It wasnt until I left that I was able to get help....a wicked, evil 'wordly person' supported me, showed me unconditional love and when necessary forced me into treatment.

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

flower

I shouldn't have used the word SOLELY. I meant to emphasize the "less" part as far as the efforts put into helping the suicidal compared to the other people involved. It doesn't represent how I truly feel about people who do go to the depths of despair and contemplate, or succeed at suicide. I was trying to make the point that we tend to forget about the other people involved more than we should. Despite the fact that I have gone through this crazy sh*t, even I have found myself swayed towards believing that the families left behind are less than what they were before the suicide.

I agree with you there probably should be more support for those left behind after a suicide if that is what you mean. There is support out there but unfortunately these families rarely reach out for it...there should be more but it is out there.

Most support assistance is in place to prevent the act from happening in the first place which IMO makes a lot more sense than saying 'forget about them, they are as good as dead anyway but after they do it lets have lots more support for those left behind'. That is in essence what your previous post mentioned..I'm glad you have revised your thinking on that however I disagree that we should focus less efforts on the suicidal person than those around them. Of course if you feel there is a lack of such support I respect that.

I think if you read the other posts that I have made you would have realized that, rather than picking on one word that I used.

Umm you not only used the word but capitalized it in order to emphasize it and the point you were making. Now that you have changed your mind on your use of the word and the point I dont think its fair to get on me for commenting on it.

I was there once myself, and it's not only for that reason that I feel for them. It's the fact that I realized, no matter how BAD it seemed at the time, it would not be fair to "the other people" if I went through with it. Besides that, I learned that the hell that I was in was mostly created by myself.

And I'm glad that worked for you. However, again, we shouldnt lump. Just because in your case it would not be fair to the other people in your life does not mean others feel the same way.

There are numerous reason someone would feel just the opposite. In many cases, the reason for the depression and suicidal feelings is at least partially the responsibility of those other people (eg parents who push their children beyond their capabilities, an abusive spouse, parents who shun and use guilt or manipulation to steal any bit of hope from their child etc etc)

There are also cases where serious illness is involved and the 'attempter' feels it is fair to the caregiver that they stop being a burden to them. This would especially be true if the 'other people' do things to make the attempter feel like they are a burden (constantly complaining about having to help the sick one)

Surely you see that there are numerous reason why your viewpoint of 'think of the people you are leaving behind' does not always work. In fact, sometimes if you focus an attempter on the people left behind it could make their tendencies to suicide even stronger.

IMO, people who attempt suicide and fail, the attempt is just a cry for help. When people really mean to exit, they succeed.

DY, I am sure this is true in a few cases however you cant just assume that everyone knows how to kill themselves properly...especially young people. When I was a kid I remember my mother telling us not to take more than 3 tylenol at a time for pain or headaches. When we asked why she said because if we took too many it could be fatal. I had no reason not to believe her so at 16 during a particularly hopeless situation I decided that if 3 was too many than surely 50 would be more than enough. I took the bottle with every intention of dying.

It wasnt a cry for help as not one person knows of this within my family or circle. It wasnt a cry for help because I believed truly that I was beyond such. It was simply a lack of true knowledge about Tylenol and its ability to kill someone. It was no different than if I had stepped in front of a truck and ended up in a hospital instead of dead.

Fortunately, for those of us who have made failed attempts and then managed to turn their thinking and lives completely around to enjoy all that life has to offer its not true that if someone really wants to they wont fail.

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

flower

I think if they want to do it, they will find a way anyway, so why not let them? From what most peoples' opinions are they are beyond help other than helping themselves anyway. However, at what point do we lay the law down, so to speak, to prevent them from hurting others, especially the children?
Maybe we should focus less on helping the suicidal people and spend the time and the money SOLELY on the victims of suicide. They are truly the innocent ones in the matter.

Due to your experience growing up with a very sick person you seem to be incapable of viewing suicide from any view but your own..that of the 'other' people.

While I certainly understand and feel very badly for you for your experiences I still believe it would do you some good to realize that most people who do it are nothing like your crazy father.

Lumping everyone who attempts suicide into your little box with your fathers picture on the front cover displays a severe lack of ability to listen and empathize with someone outside of your limited viewpoint. Most of us dont just go around attempting suicide every couple of months just for kicks.

After listening to some of the descriptions of a suicidal mind and the pain involved in getting to that point, if you can still sit there and suggest that they are not anything worth spending time or money on helping and the only victims are those left behind...well if thats the case you apparently havent spent enough time in therapy recovering from your awful experience.

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

flower

Brad, I didnt have a chance to read your post but I am sorry if my answer to the question of the title upset you or suggested that I was less empathetic to the family members of suicide attempters.

Had your question been 'how do you view people who have had family members attempt suicide?' I would have had a different answer. Your question also was not 'how do you view mentally ill, emotionally controlling, nut cases who pretend to attempt suicide in order to get something from their families'? Again if that was the question I would certainly have poured out empathy on the poor family members like yourself who have to go through that kind of horrible experience. However I dont think you qualified your question enough if that is what you meant.

When I speak of suicide attempts I tend to think more of someone who is severely depressed, hopeless and at the end of a very long journey of despair which they simply cannot concieve ever ending. In most cases its not done to hurt family, control family, or do anything to family, in fact in most cases the attempter mistakenly thinks it is best for everyone. They hate "themselves" so much that they conclude that everyone hates them and would be better off. While it may appear to be the ultimate selfish act, someone who kills himself actually thinks less about themselves than they do any other person. Its all the hate, anger and negativity in their lives turned inward towards themselves. It takes more more self loathing than most people can concieve and renders most incapable of seeing the reality of what will happen to the people left behind.

I dont know anything about people repeatedly pretend to do it just for the attention and control of their families. That in my opinion is very sick, twisted behavior. I feel extremely bad for you and any other victim of that kind of emotional abuse. Surely you must realize that your father was not the usual case of a suicide attempter.

That is why I started my post by saying you cant really give a broad opinion of the attempter (as your question asks) unless you know the attempter.

86

Suicide.... how do you view people who "attempt" it?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

anybody who has read my other recent posts...... don't worry, this is absolutely not about me feeling that way... i'm very happy, thanks..... .

my roommate, however, had a friend who committed suicide a couple of weeks ago and she just broke up with her boyfriend and he was saying things similar to what the guy who committed suicide awhile back was saying just before he took his life.

it is freaking her out.

flower

I dont know how someone can give a general opinion about someone who attempts suicide without actually knowing that person or their personal circumstances.

That being said, as someone who has been there because of despair and hopelessness and abuse, if I encounter someone who is considering or attempted suicide I automatically picture myself in their shoes and I know exactly where they are and I can feel nothing but compassion. I wouldnt wish that place on my worst enemy.

People who assume its a ploy or attention seeking stunt or manipulation simply have never really been there. Some people think they are so important that everything someone does must be about them. Their attitude is if someone tries to end their life it must be just to hurt me somehow. Thats just because most people cant comprehend feeling that bad. But it is possible to truly believe that it is the best thing for everyone.

I'm sure there are a few nutcases out there who 'pretend' attempts just for attention from a loved one but that is not a suicide attempt. If we are talking about real attempts from people in real emotional pain..they should be helped.

I am only sorry that I dont know the right words to explain to them in a way they can understand that it can get better. Usually its like talking to a wall and nothing is going to convince them. But I would still try to help if I could. No one deserves those feelings.

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