Pretty much what I expected. Actually, I doubt most witnesses will even think that hard about it; they'll just swallow it raw. They HAVE the truth, so why check other sources? Insane by most other people's standard, but perfectly normal if you believe in it.
Awakened07
JoinedPosts by Awakened07
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Here's at least one witness view of Sept KM
by TheListener ini found this on beliefnet (public post that you don't have to be a member to view):.
i just read the article and unless we're reading two different articles, what i understood isn't exactly what you understood.
let me expand on that:.
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Did this line of thought ever cross your mind?
by Awakened07 inok - first i should mention that this line of *hypothetical* thought may seem extreme, and it's obviously exaggerated to get a point across.
but it's just one of many, many logical constructs i had in my mind, even when i was still active:.
let's say we have a pioneer sister.
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Awakened07
i also had a problem, when they say that if jehovah hadn't held off armageddon, we wouldn't be here. this was always stupid for me. what about the poor schmucks after us?
Yes! Thanks for bringing that up. I also thought about that. They would say that in the end, just before Armageddon, everyone who could have been found would have been found, and no more would be able to be converted, so Jehovah could then start Armageddon. Well - there were several people in biblical times who grew up among 'heathens', and still became 'men of God'. Is it completely impossible that that may happen again? In my opinion, there would always be new potential witnesses as long as people give birth. That's how I thought when I still believed in this but had started to question things (and, to make it clear yet again; I don't believe it anymore).
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Did this line of thought ever cross your mind?
by Awakened07 inok - first i should mention that this line of *hypothetical* thought may seem extreme, and it's obviously exaggerated to get a point across.
but it's just one of many, many logical constructs i had in my mind, even when i was still active:.
let's say we have a pioneer sister.
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Awakened07
Thanks. Good to see you saw where I was going with it. I didn't ever think of doing something like this even when I was active either (thankfully) - it's the idea that it "works" according to JW theology that was the point.
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Did this line of thought ever cross your mind?
by Awakened07 inok - first i should mention that this line of *hypothetical* thought may seem extreme, and it's obviously exaggerated to get a point across.
but it's just one of many, many logical constructs i had in my mind, even when i was still active:.
let's say we have a pioneer sister.
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Awakened07
You need to get your head out of the Bible and get actively into real life.
Then you misunderstood me, like I was afraid some would. My head is way out of there already.
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Did this line of thought ever cross your mind?
by Awakened07 inok - first i should mention that this line of *hypothetical* thought may seem extreme, and it's obviously exaggerated to get a point across.
but it's just one of many, many logical constructs i had in my mind, even when i was still active:.
let's say we have a pioneer sister.
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Awakened07
OK - first I should mention that this line of *hypothetical* thought may seem extreme, and it's obviously exaggerated to get a point across. But it's just one of many, many logical constructs I had in my mind, even when I was still active:
So here we go:
Let's say we have a pioneer sister. She's old now, and have been a pioneer for 50 years. Now, how many (still faithful) people has she managed to convert during these years in total? I'm not sure what's normal, but let's put a rather high number in there and say that all in all, counting both directly and indirectly (the people she converted has again converted others), she managed to get a total of 100 people into the 'Truth' (people who stay in until the end). So basically, she saved 100 people, and they will get eternal life in paradise.
OK.
Now - let's say I personally take another route, to put it mildly. Let's say I buy a nuclear suit case from a rouge state. I then decide to sacrifice myself for the greater good. I walk into the center of one of the most populated cities in the world, and detonate the bomb.
What happens? Well, quite obviously I die, and with me let's say 200.000 people. Since I am now a murderer and have committed suicide as well, it's not likely I'll get resurrected. But - the people I killed hadn't done anything wrong. They were all going about their daily lives and then suddenly *boooom*. So logically - they should get resurrected. Now, it's logical to assume that once they do get resurrected, they are likely to 'convert', because they'll wake up in an already established paradise where Satan and his demons are gone, and most likely angels are visibly active and miracles are an every day occurrence. They pretty much won't need to take it on faith alone, 'cause they can see it has happened. So basically - they're saved.
So how's the score chart here? Pioneer working all her life = 100. Me, giving my own life for others but doing it very quickly = 200.000.
Now - an active witness would probably say "Yes, but it doesn't work that way - Jehovah isn't a machine that you can make do what you want."
OK. But think about it: although the thought of doing such a thing obviously is horrendous - is there anything logically wrong with the story? Could Jehovah in good conscience deny all these people a resurrection just because I had this plan when I did what I did? They had after all as I said not done anything wrong. No difference if they die in a horrible natural disaster or in this disaster caused by me.
I don't know. What do you think? The point of this 'story' is of course to show the absurdity of it all, and the lack of fairness when it comes to which ones get a resurrection, and which ones don't. You could say that everyone who dies before Armageddon gets a 'lucky break', since they will get a second chance, and as mentioned get resurrected into a world where blind faith is no longer needed in order to believe; they will see that God has intervened and changed everything to the better. While those unlucky b*stards who live until Armageddon comes are killed on the spot with no more chances.
How would a witness respond to this in order to explain it away (apart from what I wrote above)? I wouldn't mind getting this logical construct 'debunked', so I genuinly would like to know.
- I guess I should put a disclaimer in here saying I of course have never thought of doing this; it is only a logical construct made to get a point across (in case the US government reads this).
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Is the World Really More Violent Today?
by nvrgnbk ina quick perusal of the bible reveals an extremely violent world.. any brief study of human history reveals acts of barbarism and bloody atrocities dispersed across millenia .. is the world of today perhaps safer than ever?.
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Awakened07
The way I look at it, the world may seem more violent today as a whole, but then there are two things:
1) The world is a much "smaller" place. Two hundred years ago, if there were a lot of people killed in a far away country, would you have heard about it? Probably not, but today we hear about it instantly, plus we instantly get to see gory, bloody pictures of it only hours after the fact.
2) The world population has increased phenomenally the last hundred years or so. The way I see it, the earth is like a big room: you put a couple of people in the room, and they can probably tolerate each other and maybe even like each other. They can even 'live' in separate parts of the room if they like. Now add a couple of people to the room. Now some more. The space begins to get smaller, people get closer to each other and fights break out more easily because people step into the areas where others were first, or they want the food the others had - food which previously was abundant, but now must be rationed among the people in the room. Different personalities start to grate on each other's nerves. You put more people into the room - it's getting cramped. More fights break out for the same reasons. And so on and so forth. I don't think we should underestimate the population growth.
And still, I think that at least in the western world, violence is much less prevalent today "per. capita" than a few hundred years ago. It just seems worse because of the above points.
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Making a copy of the WT CD
by merfi inis there anything special that i need to do to make a copy of this for someone across the pond?.
i'm running xp and simply using the 'write' feature that is a part of xp, no other program.. tia,.
~merfi.
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Awakened07
merfi, when the link above works again, your UK friend can simply use that link to download the whole thing from his/her end instead of you sending a CD copy. However - if you for some reason really need to copy it yourself and send it, I think you can do it the way you describe. Just select all the files on the CD and copy the entire contents to the other CD (you may have to first copy the content to a folder on your hard drive, and then write the files from the harddrive to the recordable CD). I doubt there is any copy protection on that CD (but I'm not 100% sure).
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Die hard jw's see any problem with Sept km?
by carla inwill die hard jw's see any control issues with the sept km?
i once brought up the fact to my jw that jw's were not allowed to get together informally to do any kind of 'bible' studies without the approval of the elders, gb, etc.. he said that was totally ridiculous and false, more apostate lies.
this was long ago now and i'm not sure he even remembers saying it.
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Awakened07
That's right! I forgot about the caffeine issue. ... and now it's a conscious issue?
-When did this happen, and in what article? I haven't heard about it before now.
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Die hard jw's see any problem with Sept km?
by carla inwill die hard jw's see any control issues with the sept km?
i once brought up the fact to my jw that jw's were not allowed to get together informally to do any kind of 'bible' studies without the approval of the elders, gb, etc.. he said that was totally ridiculous and false, more apostate lies.
this was long ago now and i'm not sure he even remembers saying it.
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Awakened07
I initially thought (and hoped) that this KM article would be something big, but I now think that it's only 'big' to those on the outside, and the few who are already thinking of leaving anyway. I think it will be a meeting like any other the day it's discussed. Most witnesses (I know of) only use "approved" literature when they study anyway, even if it is in groups, so that part won't affect them.
What I did find interesting, is the line "Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible". That's pretty much a ban on scientific research (in the context of the article), because how much of science backs up what the Bible says (apart from a superficial study in some of the scientific branches)? So basically any science you could investigate will at some point collide with what you learn in Bible study. -But that won't really be a problem either, since young people shouldn't get an education in this system of things...
I think most JWs will think "Well, it's so close to Armageddon now, that Satan is furious, so we can't allow anything that is not from the organization to distract us, so I agree it's stupid to use the internet and worldly literature to study the Bible".
Remember - they HAVE the Truth, so they don't have to be worried about circular logic, 'cause... y'know - it's the Truth!
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my story
by bigdreaux inwell, i guess it's time for me to write the story of how i ended up here.. i was born in 1976 in new orleans.
i was raised in the organazation.
i never knew any different.
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Awakened07
Wow - great story - well, at least with the way it finished. I'm a little sad to see how many ex JWs turn to drugs etc., but I guess it's a normal reaction. My life has been very "boring" in comparison. Then again, I never had a rebellious phase, and now it's kinda too late. Oops - there I go talking about myself instead. Sorry - I'm happy to hear that you're doing good now, and I wish you luck in the future.
Oh - one more thing about myself , because it kinda relates to your story: I kinda thought the opposite when I was growing up - I wished I wouldn't think so much and envied those who didn't, 'cause I did believe in the gist of 'the Truth', but I had so many unanswered questions in my brain that I thought I had been better off if I had been born "dumber" than I was - that way I wouldn't know any better but would get saved in the end because of it. Oh well. I guess we're both too smart after all.