Thanks Nick!, and I agree with AuldSoul in that if possible, the original articles should be produced. Even today, I'm a little "cautious" of reading and posting quotes from ancient Watchtower literature, because I've been so indoctrinated that it may have been manipulated by 'apostates'. That is the mind of an active JW. They will not trust it unless you can show them an actual, original print. Well, this is true for some, at least.
Awakened07
JoinedPosts by Awakened07
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16
Time for a new great schism, apostasy, falling away, dissension?
by Awakened07 in"nineteen fourteen - nineteen schmorsteen" ?.
we've had some threads about this, but it seems the general consensus is that they cannot change the 1914 date - it is what the entire organization rests it's doctrine on.. but why do we say that, really?
at one time (and for many, many years), the years 1799 and 1874 were pivotal dates to the bible students.
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16
Time for a new great schism, apostasy, falling away, dissension?
by Awakened07 in"nineteen fourteen - nineteen schmorsteen" ?.
we've had some threads about this, but it seems the general consensus is that they cannot change the 1914 date - it is what the entire organization rests it's doctrine on.. but why do we say that, really?
at one time (and for many, many years), the years 1799 and 1874 were pivotal dates to the bible students.
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Awakened07
"Nineteen fourteen - nineteen schmorsteen" ?
We've had some threads about this, but it seems the general consensus is that they cannot change the 1914 date - it is what the entire organization rests it's doctrine on.
But why do we say that, really? They've after all done it before. At one time (and for many, many years), the years 1799 and 1874 were pivotal dates to the Bible Students. Now, very few active JWs have even heard of those years as being anything special.
November 1, 1922 Watch Tower said:
"Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable. [.....] Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the household of faith?"
(note that this was written after Jesus Christ had appointed them in 1919, so this should be correct...)
And what about 1925, when the 'ancient worthies' (Abraham, Isaac, Daniel, Job, Enoch, etc.) were supposed to be resurrected, walk the earth and people could talk to them etc. Ask active JWs about that today, and 1)"Never heard of it." and 2)"Apostate lies." would probably be the most common replies.
Today, you can't find other than very vague references to this in the recent publications, and when it is mentioned, it's mentioned as if it was only suggestions; stating of opinions, when in fact it was taught as coming from God, as directed by his holy spirit.
So - what if they "did a Watchtower" again in our day, and simply changed the 1914 date altogether, to now be a whole other, later year (or simply "erased it")? Sure - they would lose a lot of people in the process, but those still left would feel even more special, and would feel even more so that the end is very, very near. Their spirits would be lifted (at least for a time), they would be more closely knit together, would contribute more, etc. After a relatively short time, 1914 would become 'old light', and not something to take notice of. In fact, it would be "something apostates would lie about". "Read only the latest publications".
What do you think? What with the new Watchtower and other changes - and the fact that we're getting closer to 100 years after 1914 - do you see this as a possibility? Won't they have to change something like this eventually?
Or have they in effect already done so, but in a more sneaky and subtle way?
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14
Has the WTS changed its view on carbon dating?
by Jourles ini remember back to my high school days when the blue evolution or creation book was all the rage.
in it, i recall the wts using several reasons as to why we cannot trust carbon dating whatsoever.
has there been any change in their thinking in the last 15 or so years or any new developments on this front?
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Awakened07
Yes, garybus, but they still believe that Adam and Eve were created approx. 6000 years ago, so there could be no civilization before that.
I'm uncertain if they still believe that dinosaurs walked the earth alongside Adam and Eve though. They once (for 70 years at least) taught that each day was 7000 years, but I guess that's changed to indefinite time periods now.
It's interesting how they'll sometimes cite science, and then other times utterly reject its findings when it fits them - sometimes within the same, or a few adjoining sentences.
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A CALL TO ACTION: HIGH PRIORITY
by Wingman inhi everyone,.
a letter has been prepared by anonymous brothers to be sent to bodies of elders around the world.. of course this is a massive undertaking and we are asking for assistance from active and inactive ones around the world who share the sentiments of the letters contents.. your participation in this action indicates your sincere desire to see change within the organization that has become authoritarian in recent years.. we ask that the letter be addressed to "the body of elders" in each respective congregation.. please do not add any further information or commentary.. we are also relying on non-english speaking brothers to translate and distribute this letter.. it will not matter if more than one letter is received by each congregation.
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Awakened07
I for one would have liked to see this letter, even though I don't think it would help, and even if it did help, that in itself wouldn't change much. Anyone who has read CoC or payed any attention in recent years would know this.
However, I don't think we should, in effect, kick people out like this.
Then again - if and when they have sent the letter, they'll be disfellowshipped, and will perhaps show up here again anyway.
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Why can we see light from not long after the Big Bang?
by ThomasCovenant inplease excuse my simple mindedness but could someone explain in simple laymans terms how light from the big bang is visible to us.
someone asked me this the other day and i couldn't answer.. if light from an explosion billions of years ago has travelled at the speed of light from point a then what i can't get my head around is how come it never shot past us so to speak before we were even here at point b. .
i've tried to imagine an explosion shooting off in all directions.
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Awakened07
Well - certainly an interesting question, and one in which we have to twist our brains a bit to understand. But it's also important to get the concepts right; not so much an explosion as an expansion of space, for instance.
As far as I have understood it, we won't actually be able to collect light from the big bang itself (that is to say, the few seconds after it all started - the big bang really isn't over yet, as we're still expanding), both because light sources weren't formed for some time afterwords, and because matter was much denser for quite some time, and light was absorbed and scattered by matter such that it wouldn't reach us today. Only after ~400.000 years after the big bang started do we see light clearly (from what I have read). Radiation can be measured though.
Here are a couple of explanations to the question:
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae38.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang#Horizons
I should add that I'm in no way an expert in this field (quite the contrary although cosmology and astronomy has always fascinated me), so this is interesting to me as well.
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Awakened07
LOL, 'choice of conscience':
"-You're free to do what you want on this issue, however; remember that Jehovah may hate you for it, you'll be talked about in the congregation, there's a chance you'll stumble others and be stumbled, and die in Armageddon. Other than that - - feel free! Use your conscience! The one we've trained for you."
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Has the WTS changed its view on carbon dating?
by Jourles ini remember back to my high school days when the blue evolution or creation book was all the rage.
in it, i recall the wts using several reasons as to why we cannot trust carbon dating whatsoever.
has there been any change in their thinking in the last 15 or so years or any new developments on this front?
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Awakened07
I believe they still teach the water vapor hypothesis; that earth was surrounded by a layer of water vapor that was used in the global flood. This water vapor canopy then was the supposed cause of the globally warm climate in the day of Adam and Eve, and also disrupted the creation and distribution of C-14, so that it throws off the measurements we do today.
Of course, the water vapor canopy hypothesis has been debunked scientifically, but that doesn't really matter when you can insert a supernatural cause for it.
Add to that the various other radiometric dating methods used, that take us even further back (to put it mildly) and has nothing to do with the formation of C-14, and it starts getting rather ridiculous.
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Why am I still fearful?!
by Maddie ini've really been trying to put it out of my mind because i don't want to have these fears, but they wont go away!!.
i really thought that my mind was free from the mind control of the borg but i don't think it can be completely.
ever since reading the postings about all the changes they are going to make i feel panicky and i think it is because they can still get to me.. i don't want to feel like this and i am fighting against it but i am finding it is getting to me.. does anyone else on jwd have any of these fears still?.
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Awakened07
It's perfectly normal to feel that way, Maddie. I've done it - heck, I still sometimes do, although it's getting weaker.
We've all been in "an abusive relationship" - some choose to stay; we are the ones who decided to leave. But you can't expect to come out of it with absolutely no problems. We may feel we're doing fine, but then suddenly only the "voice on the phone" of the former "spouse" may be enough to trigger the fear again, even if the "spouse" is thousands of miles away and can't hurt us anymore. It's a natural, protective reaction.
But it gets better.
What's weird is, after I had 'left', I even started to fear the predictions of other idiots out there - well, not really fear I guess, but it would give me an uneasy feeling, and I would feel a sense of relief when their dates came about and nothing happened. And here I'm talking about people claiming specific dates for UFO invasions etc..... It's stupid. After a while though, you learn that it's all bull#%¤#, and nothing to be scared of.
We're like an animal that's been hurt by a fire once, and now every time it sees or even hears the sound of a fire, it will get scared. But after a while, when fire from fireplaces etc. actually don't hurt the animal, it will slowly adjust and learn that it's not dangerous after all.
OK - enough with my stupid analogies...
At one point I thought "I'll be happy on January 1st. 2013 - then I can breathe a sigh of relief." But the problem with that is that these a¤%holes will always be there, making their stupid predictions, and unfortunately they'll be with us the rest of our lives.
Best just not pay any attention to them at all, and just live our lives.
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Thoughts on the Spirituality of Atheism
by nvrgnbk inthoughts on the spirituality of atheismc.
george boeree.
i am an atheist.
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Awakened07
- As an atheist, I believe love is something that can be broken down to being a series of electrochemical reactions caused by sensory input - - but is that all, and do I treat it that way?
- As an atheist, I believe music is something that can be broken down to being a series of notes put in the correct mathematical order of rhythm to spark the pattern recognition part of our brain - - but is that all, and do I treat it that way?
- As an atheist, I believe art is something that can be broken down to being forms, outlines and colors that spark the pattern recognition part of our brain - - but is that all, and do I treat it that way?
- As an atheist, I believe life evolved in small steps from random mutation and natural selection, that the most fit survives, and that it wasn't created by a loving God - - but is that all, and do I treat it as if it was any less worth?
No.
Love gives me a variety of emotions and experiences in its various forms and stages, which I can share with others (and/or a significant other).
Music gives me a variety of emotions and experiences in its various forms, which I can share with others (and/or a significant other).
Art gives me a variety of emotions and experiences in its various forms, which I can share with others (and/or a significant other).
Looking at various life forms gives me a variety of emotions and experiences, which I can share with others (and/or a significant other).
I can cry, I can laugh, I can get angry, I can be sad, I can be happy.
It's the spice of life. I think this is my spirituality.
-Awakened.
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What did you not like about the paradise?
by reneeisorym ini have always loved it when the seasons changes.
i was always told that we would have temerate weather all of the time and the seasons wouldn't chage.
i always thought i would miss the changing leaves, budding flowers after it has been so cold, and the snow.
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Awakened07
I used to wonder about literature, as in novels, short stories, etc.
And what about other forms of art?
This used to bother me, because I was told that since we'd be perfect, we could choose what art form we wanted to be good at, and everyone would be a great artist in his/her own preferred field. Not only that, but since 'famous people' currently are the object of idol worship (*sigh*), no one would ever become famous or well known for their art or other 'gifts' at all. We'd all sit in our houses with the friends from next door (not too many houses over) and play our guitar and sing and paint, but that'd be it. No culture like we're used to today.
I also didn't like the idea that we'd have people here on earth that would take 'orders' from above, and dispense it to the rest of us, telling us where to live, what to do etc. Same ol' same ol'. Meetings all the time even though it's after Armageddon etc.