Posts by Friend

67

PROOF from the WT

by Scorpion in

jw
friends

that the organization means salvation

Friend

Andyman

Yes, I am the same Friend from H2O.

I know that most JW's will tell you that Jehovah and Jesus will be the ones to do the judging, but lets be honest here, they tell that to those at the door, or those who aren't JW's. When JW's get together the conversation, in most cases, is that ONLY JW's will be saved.

Yes, what you say is all too true yet it does not agree with the fine distinction taught in the publications of the Society. Too often JWs get overly caught up in their convictions of having a/"the" true association of Christians that they discount Jehovah’s role as Judge. By questioning them you can get them back down to earth to a reasonable degree—at least you can usually do that on the subject of salvation.

I think that SC has proven his point here very well.

I respect that that is your view, but SC has neglected to resolve a number of questions asked relative to his point. When he does so successfully then I will also agree with him/her.

Like Waiting said, the best debater isn't the issue here. The facts are right here for all to see, and I think that is the issue.

I prefer to stick with facts myself. When SC does that and resolves those questions I mentioned then (s)he and I can continue with the discussion, if they so desire.

If you are the same Friend from H20 I would like to say that I do respect your devotion to the society, and though I don't agree with everything you say, I admire your loyalty. But again I believe that loyalty should be for Jehovah, not the organization.

It is a misconception the think I am devoted to the Society. I am devoted to our Creator alone. I have several major divergent views from the Society and they know what they are because I have told them so. Since there is so much misinformation about the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, perhaps you mistake my debates over those issues as defense of the Society. I have just as often hung the Society’s laundry out for everyone to see it for what it is. Being truthful demands nothing less than that. Rest assured that my loyalty lay in the hands of the only One that can reciprocate it in full measure.

waiting

Maybe Friend is not our friend at all........

Or maybe Friend is a bigger friend than you realize.

Friend

Edited by - Friend on 9 June 2000 0:19:23

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

Friend

waiting

Friend: "Why I Find You Offensive"

Thank you. If you had left out the formatting it would have made for a quite nice poem.

I appreciate frankness.

Friend

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

Friend

RedhorseWoman

I disagree that debating is necessary for growth. Debating to me is simply trying to prove a point just for the sake of proving that point.
If, by debate, you infer discussion, sharing of knowledge, and learning....then I agree with you.

Debate can be painful but it can bring rich rewards. Debating is all that you mentioned. It is proving a point, discussion, sharing of knowledge and learning. (Actually I prefer the idea of evidencing a point versus proving a point. Proof is an elusive thing. Most often we conclude with the best information available, which is usually short of the absoluteness of proof.)

To be perfectly honest, I never asked for your beliefs because I noticed that others had asked direct questions of you, and you did not seem to care to divulge your beliefs or feelings.

Like everyone else, I also have beliefs and feelings that are dear to me.

My impression was that you were more interested in stirring up a rousing battle. If this is in error, I apologize.

I have no interest in stirring up a rousing battle. On the other hand, if I see distortion of truth I will jump in there with the best of them and present my case. Most often taking umbrage are the distortionists. I am not too concerned about winning or losing. I am more concerned that accuracy prevails.

I appreciate your candor and accept your apology for what it is, just two persons getting to know one another better. Thanks.

[W]hy the snide comment about recognizing an argument when I see one?

LOL. I have a bad habit of trying to be thorough. That "snide" remark was not intended as such. It was intended to just cover all the possibilities.

Sharing generally is a good thing. Taking something you feel is what a person needs and force-feeding it to them generally results in choking.
Please feel free to share. Please do not badger.

That is a concept with which I struggle. It is extremely difficult for me to become choked or feel badgered on a forum such as this. True, there is a measure of interactiveness, but in most respects forums such as this are like reading something in a magazine. I read all kinds of idiotic nonsense everyday; it is unavoidable. Yet I do not feel force fed because I can just ignore it. If I am pressed on some issue of importance to me then I respond with my convictions and bases for them. If my bases are demonstrated as inaccurate and I learn something new then I am happy that it happened to me.

Please do not let this disagree with you, but on forums such as this I find that persons who feel force-fed or badgered are those who find that their views are based upon emotion rather than reality. No one here is required to respond or evidence anything. I think the frustration comes when evidencing some claim becomes less and less likely. You have opined that I should share my beliefs and that is one of them.

I do not want to continue discussing issue with anyone if that makes them feel uncomfortable. In their case I would rather just learn about them. Later if an occasion arises for discussion of issues between us then we will see about that at that time. Perhaps by then a better understanding or personalities will aid toward avoiding needless frustration and anger.

Friend

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

Friend

waiting

You are a fascinating opponent, as in opposer. Why, again I ask, do you perceive yourself as our Teacher?

It is not bad to be an opposer. I am sure you will agree that sometimes being an opposer is the moral high ground.

I do not perceive myself as your teacher. If you perceive anyone as your teacher then most likely you have either learned something from them or else you feel you need one.

Like you, I am clumsily making my way through life, which for me is probably not going to go on for much longer. During that process I try to learn and share as much as possible. In the end how much and what we share of ourselves is our measure as a person. If I have shared too much here and it has somehow caused offense then I am sorry for that. On the other hand if my sharing has helped anyone then I have increased my measure as a person.

Friend

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

Friend

RedhorseWoman

And, Friend, the basis for my opinion is simply my feeling of what is considerate and appropriate.

Thanks for that answer to my question.

I have also wondered why you choose to debate everything, and yet you have never once stated what YOU feel or believe.

Debating is part of our growth. The day we stop debating is the day it is all over. I think that is the very reason that many find themselves today in awkward circumstances. If they had debated issues—even in their own mind—they would be standing on firmer ground as a result. Lack of debate breeds insecurity. Debating reinforces and creates new depths to our convictions and person.

As for talking about my beliefs, I have no problem doing that. I find it odd that you mention that because you have never once asked outright for my view of this whole affair as if that mattered to you. One reason that I have lately participated on this forum is because after reading some of the distortions and fallacious reasoning I just could not help but ask you all to justify some of your opinions. I see that that was a bad idea. I see so many here satisfied with their opinions regardless of facts that I have lately reconsidered my participation. I am not sure who is loosing out, you or me; I think probably both of us. Me because I enjoy observing how people think.

You have made statements, and when someone offers a counter argument, you simply reply with "that's not what I believe".

No, that is not what I do. You have only experienced me saying "that’s not what I believe" because of your misrepresentations of me. My argument you have either completely misunderstood or ignored—that assumes that you recognize an argument when you see one.

For the record, I appreciate all of your views. I have also enjoyed watching how you respond. For me everything is a learning experience. If that reminds anyone of their father or someone else about whom they hold some king of critical view, just remember, I am a person too. Like you, I am entitled to personality, disposition and opinions of my own. I am also entitled to speak accordingly. Those who are critical of that are being critical of themselves.

To those who find me offensive, I challenge that you ask yourself why that is. It does not matter to me, but it should matter a great deal to you. Usually insecurity comes from within rather than being instilled.

Please be assured that you have in no way offended me. For any offense I have cause you, I apologize. That was not my intent.

Like it or not, your
Friend

Edited by - Friend on 8 June 2000 22:43:37

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

Friend

RedhorseWoman

Alas, here we go again….

You said:

What clarification are you seeking? What proof? What explanation? My opinion is my opinion.

You based your opinion on what you referred to as a right. That was your description, not mine. But regardless of the word usage, all I asked was that you clarify that basis by asking, "I will ask you again, what explicit or implicit right do you have in mind? Where is that right expressed? I see now that just asking you for clarification of one of your own representations gets you all wound up. There is probably a reason for that.

Get it? Opinion = formed conclusion based upon something

The something is what I was looking for. Your most recent posts have pretty much answered the question of whether you have bases for your opinions.

I said:
However, for some reason you seem to think that it is perfectly all right for the Society to deal with the matter HOWEVER it sees fit without informing the questioner. Fine, that's your opinion. I disagree with it. [Emphasis added]
There you go again. Please show everyone where I ever have represented such a ridiculous notion.
You replied:
Did you notice my use of the word "seem"? I never stated that this was "in fact" your opinion....merely that it "seemed" to be your opinion.

Did you notice my use of the word "notion." I never requested anything explicit, only for the mere notion. If you are right that what you said "seem[ed" to be my opinion then the notion must exist somewhere in my responses to you. So, where is it? Can you or will you show me and everyone else the notion that I think "it is perfectly all right for the Society to deal with the matter HOWEVER it sees fit without informing the questioner. Mind you, all I want you to demonstrate is the mere notion of that idea.

You have definitely convinced me that you have an opinion on this matter. That has been clear from the beginning. What I have sought after is the bases or basis for that opinion. If you had one by now it would be evident. I have not seen it and you have consistently refused to offer anything resembling such even in the face of direct request for it.

Believe it or not, like it or not, prattle is the correct characterization of what you been doing so far. If you would read what others are actually writing and also read what you are actually writing then perhaps you could communicate and make some sense for those of us interested enough in your views to seek an understanding of them and their bases.

Friend.

Edited by - Friend on 8 June 2000 19:9:23

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

Friend

RedhorseWoman

You said:

The issue is that I have stated my opinion on the handling of this correspondence, and you choose to ignore anything I have said on the matter while you repeatedly "strain gnats".

That is one of the galldarndest things yet asserted on this thread! Would you please go back and READ(!) my post of Jun 7, 2000 11:04:23 PM. Therein I thoroughly presented exactly the problem with your opinion and my reasons for disputing its validity, even asking for your clarification. Did you reply to it AT ALL? No, you did not. Yet you did take the time to further accuse that I ignore anything you have said on the subject. WOW! Since then all you have done is distort my words with false assertions!

As for “straining gnats”, it is amusing how often such a term in invoked when details begin contradicting some opinionated view. If my request for your clarification is such a gnat then it should be easy enough for you to answer.

It is also quite amusing how you characterize your misrepresentation me as “gnat” in significance. You then also characterize my requests for a logical explanation of specific and pertinent details as “straining gnats”. It looks like anything you don’t like to deal with is rubbed off as an insignificant “gnat.” Isn’t that type behavior at the heart of your complaints against the Society?

However, for some reason you seem to think that it is perfectly all right for the Society to deal with the matter HOWEVER it sees fit without informing the questioner. Fine, that's your opinion. I disagree with it. [Emphasis added]

There you go again. Please show everyone where I ever have represented such a ridiculous notion.

What I don’t understand is why I bother replying to such prattle.

Friend

77

Writing private letters to the Society.

by spectromize in

for anyone who's ever written something of a private nature or asked clarification on certain beliefs have you ever had the unfortunate experience of the elders calling you in the back room or a sheperding call ?.

the reason i bring this out is that newer brothers or sisters don't know that everytime you write the society the society sends a copy of your letter to your local cong.

elders.

Friend

RedhorseWoman

You said of me:

I took issue with your statement that it would be "preposterous" for the Society to send a copy to the local elders because they had so much mail that they could only take the time to send personal replies.

Thanks for illustrating that you have not understood the simplest of my expressions. Please show everyone where I ever have represented that assertion of yours above.

Friend

67

PROOF from the WT

by Scorpion in

jw
friends

that the organization means salvation

Friend

SC

Your presentation on this thread appears to be a response to conclusions I have argued on the thread titled Apostolic Succession. However, a response is not counter argument. I see nothing on this thread so far from anyone that presents counter-argument to that presented on the other thread. For instance, I laid out several logical questions that a successful counter-argument needs to resolve. Presentations here have so far left those questions unresolved, indeed they have been ignored entirely. Besides that I also addressed the possible relationships between two different ideas and how those possible relationships help us resolve the sum of what it actually being taught.

Besides that, you have also misrepresented me on this thread on a number of points. It appears that is inadvertent, stemming from not fully following what was said earlier. An example is where you say, “Friend also said JWs uniquely practice the Christianity of the Bible.” What I actually said is that that is what Jehovah’s Witnesses teach. I have not expressed that as a personal conviction, which is what your sentence portrays.

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that they have the only true religion? Yes, that is what they teach.

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that ultimately Jehovah decides who is right and who is wrong and who gains salvation and who does not? Yes, they teach that as well.

Some people see conflict in those teaches when that is not in fact the case. It is true that those teachings are non-supportive toward one another but it is not true that they oppose one another either, and that is the flaw in your deductions. Since there are other options then your apparent “this or that” deduction is no less than a black and white fallacy, which is called a bifurcation. Another option, which fits perfectly, is that the two teachings accommodate one another without contradiction. Since my comments on the Apostolic Succession thread already addressed this in some detail I will let readers go back and consider those comments there. If anyone wants to discuss those fundamental points toward resolving the conflicting conclusions about what we teach on the subject of salvation then I am willing to participate. But I see no need in participating when critical details or fundamental issues are not being addressed.

Please do not misunderstand me, SC. The investment of time manifested in your presentation represents seriousness about the subject. My comments here are not intended as any sort of personal affront to you or anyone else. I just see where critical resolutions are being left undone making corresponding conclusions suspect at best.

Friend

44

"Apostolic succession"?

by Jokemyster in

jw
friends

since the wt organization claims "apostolic succession" who was it that passed the torch of gods spirit to c.t.russel when he founded the.

organization?

what denomination or faith?

Friend

Pathofthorns

I agree with much of what you said. Some of your issues raised are among the strongest of my disagreements with the Society. How we cope with those disagreements and the Society is important to the quality of many people’s lives. In some cases that coping can be as simple as, “I’m gone.” In other cases things are not that simple—which I’m sure you are aware.

Friend