Sorry I haven't read all the responses, gotta go in a bit but I think more to the point is how can you love your neighbor as yourself if you don't KNOW yourself. After all how can you even love yourself if you don't know yourself? It doesn't come from works, or following some beliefs. Clearly a deep understanding of human nature is called for, and you can start right here. The little cookie cutter religious rationalizations just goes to show it hasn't gone very deep for people who repeat them. If that phrase is to have any power it would have to prompt you to look inward, people who think you just hear that once and go out and "do it" won't see all the assumptions they are adding to it.
educ8self
JoinedPosts by educ8self
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27
Love your neighbor as yourself
by lawrence inhow can a christian love their neighbor as themself, if they don't love themselves?
if a christian hates himself, how can he love his neighbor?
if a christian treats himself poorly, how can he treat his neighbor well?
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I'm on a bit of a mission
by PaulJ inthose who don't know my story- was brought up a jw, married young (dumb idea), divorced, kinda fell for the 1st person that came along, that didnt work, now kinda sat pondering where the hell the past decade has gone!
i'm on the hunt for some of my old friends, both people that have had the sense the leave the jw's as well as my old mates from school and college that were good friends- and must of put up with some weird behavior from me (no xmas and birthday cards, no attending of birthday parties etc etc).
i've managed to get into contact with one or 2 which is great, especially one who asked if i was still aa jw , which i was so pleased to be aable to say i wasn't!
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educ8self
I guess I used to feel something like that, more so for the active JWs actually - but I never was one to force anything on anybody. With non-JWs it's just been kind of like "oh yeah, by the way.." when it comes up or becomes relevant. A while back I had a high school friend contact me from one of those social networking sites, but I am so different from back then there is just not much of a connection, anyway I kind of just had the same classes with him and shared video games. Life goes on...
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I'm on a bit of a mission
by PaulJ inthose who don't know my story- was brought up a jw, married young (dumb idea), divorced, kinda fell for the 1st person that came along, that didnt work, now kinda sat pondering where the hell the past decade has gone!
i'm on the hunt for some of my old friends, both people that have had the sense the leave the jw's as well as my old mates from school and college that were good friends- and must of put up with some weird behavior from me (no xmas and birthday cards, no attending of birthday parties etc etc).
i've managed to get into contact with one or 2 which is great, especially one who asked if i was still aa jw , which i was so pleased to be aable to say i wasn't!
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educ8self
Well hell I didn't have many friends in the organization actually, contacted the one DF'd bro that was a close friend and that was about it. As for worldly friends, I guess in time we all change and you just go in different directions. Guess it'd be more the future than the past for me.
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Ever met a "deep" JW?
by educ8self inmy guess is probably not, or if they were they weren't that much of a jw or their perspective isn't so relevant to jw thought - i trust those that have been out a while understand what i mean, hindsight and all.
what i'd like to do is draw out a contrast that some may have by way of their personal experience, maybe a "worldly person" or other non-jw that is an example of someone that has a great and helpful perspective on life, vs. the jw one.
there may be people from this board, but i think even a specific telling moment with a simple thing could be good or even better.
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educ8self
educ8self , I would like to ask (considering that you've been posting a fair bit in just this last 3 weeks, and your screen-name suggests that you invite such questions):
Sure,
What do you know about having been raised in a JW environment?
Was one from my teens, though my parents weren't I had friends who were.
What do you know about sociology?
Only formal study is an intro class I dropped.
What do you know about epistemology?
Not much either, took an intro philosophy course years ago.
What (getting back to the first question) do you know about conditioning?
Well that we have a lot of practical experience in don't we! I've more education in psychology though it is also in the past, (few classes, few popular books here and there) I essentially have a general familiarization. I guess I'm a pretty simple guy when you get down to it, my interest in educating myself cannot replace my interest in people and life I suppose, which is why I spend so much time on this forum I guess. I do appreciate a good education, although it isn't so much in the way of a large volume of information. You may say I'm more of a humanist than I am an intellectual, something like that. Like today when I'm posting so much, it really isn't so much about what is said as it is just an interest in people, my heart actually goes out to the folks on here.
Did you have some ideas in the way of suggested reading, specifics for discussion?
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Why is god so angry?
by keyser soze inin reading the scriptures, it is clear that god has some serious anger issues, not to mention insecurities.
how does he deal with anyone who displeases him in the old testament?
he not only kills them, but their children, and their children's children.
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educ8self
Why is man so evil?
You might want to start a separate thread on that, but off the top of my head I'd say it has something to do with being drunk with power - to the extent that you have no life other than accumulating power, your whole identity and existence is focused on gaining it and of course it means taking it from others by whatever means necessary. That's the extreme of course, a lot of people probably just kind of buy into that and serve others with that outlook knowingly or unknowingly, because they see it as the only way to go. In spite of this undercurrent I guess one thing I appreciate about the people on this forum is even if someone has become cynical, it's clear to me they are not like that.
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Ever met a "deep" JW?
by educ8self inmy guess is probably not, or if they were they weren't that much of a jw or their perspective isn't so relevant to jw thought - i trust those that have been out a while understand what i mean, hindsight and all.
what i'd like to do is draw out a contrast that some may have by way of their personal experience, maybe a "worldly person" or other non-jw that is an example of someone that has a great and helpful perspective on life, vs. the jw one.
there may be people from this board, but i think even a specific telling moment with a simple thing could be good or even better.
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educ8self
Yes, maybe I should qualify the word "deep" more. It's certainly not in terms of any intellectual understanding, but more along the lines of really understanding life and the human condition. While someone may be a fine human being, sympathetic even it is not particularly deep in that sense if they don't see the limitations of the teachings of the society.
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Body Modification/older societies/similar to WBTS view of women
by restrangled ini have just read the book, "snow flower and the secret fan" along with watching part of the national geographic series "taboo".
sadly, most of the modification involves distortion of the female body which then inturn, affects the minds for generations.. most of the justification for the body modification was to keep women in line mentally.
generation after generation of mothers were taught that neck lengthening, breast flatening, foot binding, and female circumsizing kept the girls clean and free from attracting men and kept them "down" in their societies.. i am not suggesting the wbts society approved of these physical methods, but the mental ramifications were adhered to and the result is the same.. women are considered second class citizens in this patriarchal society.
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educ8self
Ah thanks for mentioning Kow Tow, that must be the Chinese expression where the Kow means actually hitting the hard ground where it makes a "K" sound and Tow means head.
It's actually worse, if we look closely it is evident that it's not just formally practiced by specific organizations, it is embedded and permeates in the culture. A while back I was working with someone who remarked "you wouldn't want to be married to a woman smarter than you, would you?" Umm.. And it's good to be with someone dumber than you?
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Ever met a "deep" JW?
by educ8self inmy guess is probably not, or if they were they weren't that much of a jw or their perspective isn't so relevant to jw thought - i trust those that have been out a while understand what i mean, hindsight and all.
what i'd like to do is draw out a contrast that some may have by way of their personal experience, maybe a "worldly person" or other non-jw that is an example of someone that has a great and helpful perspective on life, vs. the jw one.
there may be people from this board, but i think even a specific telling moment with a simple thing could be good or even better.
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educ8self
Thanks for the responses so far guys. I would think one thing might be that someone who is a deep JW might be one for humanitarian reasons in a sense, as clearly the rank and file are not like that. I can remember one CO that's kind of like that, didn't know him that well being that he was a CO but - I guess the bottom line is there is the religion and there is the person.
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Body Modification/older societies/similar to WBTS view of women
by restrangled ini have just read the book, "snow flower and the secret fan" along with watching part of the national geographic series "taboo".
sadly, most of the modification involves distortion of the female body which then inturn, affects the minds for generations.. most of the justification for the body modification was to keep women in line mentally.
generation after generation of mothers were taught that neck lengthening, breast flatening, foot binding, and female circumsizing kept the girls clean and free from attracting men and kept them "down" in their societies.. i am not suggesting the wbts society approved of these physical methods, but the mental ramifications were adhered to and the result is the same.. women are considered second class citizens in this patriarchal society.
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educ8self
Good post Cicatrix. Clearly we see a reflection of how women and femininity are viewed as weaker in such expressions, but I would bet that the effort to dominate women comes from a recognition that there is a feminine power which makes men become stupid, horny retards. So instead of a thing of beauty sexual union becomes associated with power and dominance, or manipulation. The crude and blunt approach of the masculine gets circumvented by the kind of savvy feminine seduction.
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Body Modification/older societies/similar to WBTS view of women
by restrangled ini have just read the book, "snow flower and the secret fan" along with watching part of the national geographic series "taboo".
sadly, most of the modification involves distortion of the female body which then inturn, affects the minds for generations.. most of the justification for the body modification was to keep women in line mentally.
generation after generation of mothers were taught that neck lengthening, breast flatening, foot binding, and female circumsizing kept the girls clean and free from attracting men and kept them "down" in their societies.. i am not suggesting the wbts society approved of these physical methods, but the mental ramifications were adhered to and the result is the same.. women are considered second class citizens in this patriarchal society.
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educ8self
I am a woman, hence my chief interest is men.
Gosh, as desperate as a man may get sexually I can't see someone that .. err I don't even have the word, I mean where's the self respect? Your interest as a woman has to be dependent on men?
Alright lets not get off on a tangent here.. One point that came to mind is the infantilized frame of mind that such organizations has to work with, I mean girls, chicks as opposed to women and so on. You gotta wonder at what point is femininity equated or even associated with subservience?