Can anyone recommend which Steve Hassan book to read, I see there are 3.
My mind is all over the place during this process of finally acknowledging and researching my doubts, Ive been recommended his books on here, but which one is best?
Tornintwo
JoinedPosts by Tornintwo
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Which Steve Hassan book?
by Tornintwo incan anyone recommend which steve hassan book to read, i see there are 3.. my mind is all over the place during this process of finally acknowledging and researching my doubts, ive been recommended his books on here, but which one is best?.
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Does What We Say Here Or In Person Really Help JWs To Get Out Of The Religion?
by minimus inif we are in the congregation, do you think our comments or questions actually reach elders or others in the congregation?
do our comments on this board affect witnesses to the point of questioning their faith?
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Tornintwo
It's definitely helping me, I'm only been here a month and I'm kind of addicted.
When you start to doubt you feel like you're going insane, the cognitive dissonance pulls you back in to the guilty fog and you question if you are doing something terrible by even asking these questions. Here you find people who feel/or felt like you do and came out the other side, you also find out that a lot of ex jws are kind, 'Christian' (in the way they act even if non believers) and supportive (not evil apostates!)
You get reinforcement for your own issues but also get a chance to reconsider points you never even would have questioned because of the indoctrination. Also it's so refreshing to see the different &conflicting opinions expressed freely! Funny too at times.
having said all that I agree that for the sake of newbies just daring to lurk, older posters shouldn't be too harsh about the org, it can be an instant turnoff if you are only just starting to question things and you read something abusive or very irreverent. What you need is an honest examination of the facts, which is why I think jwfacts is so powerful too.
Anyway, thanks everyone, this forum is helping me right now.
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One month researching my doubts: my crucial issues with WTBTS - what are yours?
by Tornintwo inso after 20 years a convert, about a month ago i decided to start listening to my doubts and to do independent research about the wtbts teachings (naughty me).
as a result i have consolidated my position on various points and these are my major issues with the wtbts teachings, i am posting these to help myself figure things out (with your assistance) and hopefully to hear from others at their stage of drawing away from the gb - newbies' especially.
in the form of notes so hope you dont mind...child abuse.
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Tornintwo
Hi The Governor, thanks so much for your list, very clear and though out points which are thought-provoking, well done you for seeing all this before committing yourself by baptism, plenty of people on here wishing they'd been as asute. I can feel your emotion regarding the whole disfellowshipping issue, such a lack of love or justice in that whole process and I'm sorry it's hurt your family, I'm absolutely convinced that's not what Jesus wanted. I'm still researching ( when I can amongst work/family stuff) but I afraid I've 'taken the red pill, the genies out of the bottle, the cats out of the bag'....
my family situation is a bit complicated so I can't just walk away right now, but Iike others on here have said, it's mentally liberating to acknowledge your doubts and to know you don't have to accept or excuse the b.s. In this religion anymore, plus any guilt about 'not doing more' has almost disappeared. It's painful but it's also pretty nice to be awake!
Thank you also Franz, there is much research to do (amidst work/family stuff) so it might take years, I'm impatient but I've really taken to heart the advice from you and others to take things slow, I need it. What's great is that I will now allow myself to do the research, I've broken free of those mental controls and I hope many more will do that too, how foolish we were to allow men to decide for us what we should and shouldn't think.
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One month researching my doubts: my crucial issues with WTBTS - what are yours?
by Tornintwo inso after 20 years a convert, about a month ago i decided to start listening to my doubts and to do independent research about the wtbts teachings (naughty me).
as a result i have consolidated my position on various points and these are my major issues with the wtbts teachings, i am posting these to help myself figure things out (with your assistance) and hopefully to hear from others at their stage of drawing away from the gb - newbies' especially.
in the form of notes so hope you dont mind...child abuse.
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Tornintwo
Hi everyone, thanks for the great replies, feels so good to speak to people who understand.
Nice summary Of the choices we face DOC. It sounds like Millie and her family have found the sweet spot, inactive but without shunning or too much disapproval. I have had a great deal of stress this last year, which some of the elders know about, so I can use to a certain extent the stress/depression card truthfully to reduce my activity and start to fade.
I just really need to learn to keep my mouth shut because I've sounded off too much to my husband so far, thinking he'd start to open his eyes too, but he just comes straight back with the standard answers and I can't stand the way he equates it all with loyalty to God.
Thanks again, much to think about
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One month researching my doubts: my crucial issues with WTBTS - what are yours?
by Tornintwo inso after 20 years a convert, about a month ago i decided to start listening to my doubts and to do independent research about the wtbts teachings (naughty me).
as a result i have consolidated my position on various points and these are my major issues with the wtbts teachings, i am posting these to help myself figure things out (with your assistance) and hopefully to hear from others at their stage of drawing away from the gb - newbies' especially.
in the form of notes so hope you dont mind...child abuse.
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Tornintwo
stan livedeath - you dont think it might be a cult perhaps ?(how do you do that 'copy someone's comment in a little yellow box' thing that you all do?)Well, I'm starting to consider the possibility!
thanks for all your answers, 'Freddo' it's good advice to take some time and not to act rashly, considering my family situation which is complicated to say the least. I'm/they're not ready for the big reveal yet, but they know I'm going through a tough time. Like you say it's mentally liberating, at least I don't have to feel guilty about what I don't do/do anymore!
Bonsai - good point about the UN issue, that really stood out to me as hypocrisy in the extreme, especially in light of the stance in Malawi (and the contrasting situation in Mexico).
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One month researching my doubts: my crucial issues with WTBTS - what are yours?
by Tornintwo inso after 20 years a convert, about a month ago i decided to start listening to my doubts and to do independent research about the wtbts teachings (naughty me).
as a result i have consolidated my position on various points and these are my major issues with the wtbts teachings, i am posting these to help myself figure things out (with your assistance) and hopefully to hear from others at their stage of drawing away from the gb - newbies' especially.
in the form of notes so hope you dont mind...child abuse.
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Tornintwo
So after 20 years a convert, about a month ago I decided to start listening to my doubts and to do independent research about the WTBTS teachings (naughty me). As a result I have consolidated my position on various points and these are my major issues with the WTBTS teachings, I am posting these to help myself figure things out (with your assistance) and hopefully to hear from others at their stage of drawing away from the GB - ‘newbies' especially. In the form of notes so hope you don’t mind...
Child AbuseTerrible treatment of child abuse victims, wrong advice to victims of sexual abuse and domestic violence resulting in harm and danger to the victims.
Not just the odd isolated case, there are many examples and organizational policy is to blame, eg. 2 witness rule, confidentiality, 'protecting' Jehovahs name by discouraging reporting to ‘worldly’ agencies.
Adversarial attitude to victims who want justice, treating them as greedy and litigious instead of apologizing and seeking to make amends.
Shunning taken to the extreme, parents told not to associate with children, splitting families for decades. Youths are often the victim of this policy, having been encouraged to be baptised as children before they really knew what they were committing too and the consequences - then ironically 'the world' often helps to pick up the pieces of their broken lives.
Star chamber judicial proceedings (accused not free even free to record), people disfellowshipped even when they say they are repentant (how can humans judge what is in another’s heart?), the long punitive process to be reinstated, not inline with prodigal son account or account in Acts.
Paul's examples were a) speaking of the antichrist (those who deny/oppose christ) Also corinthians indicates a short period of disfellowshipping and the individual was rebuked by the ‘majority’, not everyone.
The reality of our policies is that we can have child abusers in the congregation, freely associating with families and preaching to the public (who say they're repentant but we all know the facts about that particular deviance) at the same time we have individuals perhaps disfellowhipped years ago during youth for something silly like smoking or fornication, who now live decent lives with family of their own etc, (but who didn't get reinstated because they no longer believe it's the truth) and these are still being ignored by their own parents/relatives and shunned by the JW community for decades! Crazy!Elevation of the GBThe habit of equating GB teachings with Jehovah, not allowing for individual thought/disagreement even if done in all good conscience based on scriptures. Even though GB regularly change thought. Elevation of the GB members to celebrity status.
The light gets brighter. Can we believe that this would mean the Holy Spirit would reveal falsehood which would be taught for decades having fundamental effects on people's lives, only to be retracted/changed because of increasing 'light'. If the scrip is to be used in these terms then the only way that could be justified is if the GB had said, 'we don't understand clearly this scripture yet', until a later date 'light has revealed it to mean this...'. It cannot be a justification for teaching falsehood.
Along the same lines, grey areas such as civilian service alternative to military service, blood fractions, oral sex, holding a political ID card in a one party state: these should never have been 'ruled upon' resulting in great suffering, imprisonment or disfellowshipping, family break up etc.
False predictions made in Jehovahs name: 1914, 1925, 1975, the generation who were cognizant in 1914, by the end of the 20th century to name the major ones…see Deut 18:20-23
Blood: can a symbol of life mean more than life itself?
Can we really need know how Jehovah and Jesus feel about blood transfusions?
Surely Jehovah would not punish us for wanting to save a life, even if in doing so we inadvertently 'sin', surely this is where Jesus sacrifice and mercy come into play? Why should GB presume to punish such with disassociation and shunning?
Fraction allowance, changes in doctrine on blood and transplants show hypocrisy. Eg. I can benefit from donated blood in terms of fractions but cannot donate blood as a JW.
Although if following scripture blood is obviously not to taken lightly and I wouldn't eat a blood sausage, clearly when it comes to life- saving medical treatment this should be a conscience matter.
All others will die:
Despite efforts to thinly veil the actual beliefs to make them seem less brutal. The GB teaches that you must be associated with the organization to have any hope of survival. There is no allowance made for children. Those with limited or no access to the 'truth', sincere/good people of other faiths or no faith. We are asked to believe that they will be judged on their response to our preaching, so if someone is busy on a Saturday morning and refused a magazine about, say, smoking then they are actually rejecting everlasting life on paradise earth!?!? who knew?
Many many JWs internalize a personal view that others will survive 'Jehovah will be the judge', as I did for decades. The reality is the WT teachings are hardline on this point and the very latest thought reminds us that we shouldn't expect a mass conversion during the great tribulation.
I ask my JW friends on this point, if you were in an arena with 100,000 people standing before you, and you have a machine gun to execute all unbelievers, would you kill all but the 100 who are active Jehovah's witnesses? Based on the warning already given by the preaching work and their reaction to it?
Some will say, and I did, 'the message will get clearer before the time of the end, the choice will be clearer', well I hope so. But looking at the work today, there is a long long way to go before everyone truly could know that they're rejecting everlasting life in paradise earth by not seeking out JWs. See jwfacts on this point which as always makes very astute points:
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/salvation-only-for-jehovahs-witnesses.php
The sickening thing is, although there are the 'kinder' JWS out there, there are also the hardline ones whose comments jar in meetings - saying things like 'we should expect people not to be interested deep into the last days, they've made their choice, they can't say they haven't had a witness’ and those who seem to delight in talking about the so called coming Armageddon slaughter eg. Anthony Morris on comparing scorched human flesh to hotdogs!? Yes I am sure Jesus would have talked like that Brother Morris, nice Christian attitude, well done!
Birthdays: so a piñata is acceptable because it might be a little bit pagan but has lost all pagan connotations, same with wedding rings...but birthdays still aren’t? Now can anyone tell me if their non witness friends/relatives murder people on their birthdays or perform pagan rituals? Take the candles away and what exactly is the problem? I hate the fact that I've deprived my kids of these normal events.
Money: asking for money by TV channel? what?!!? when I converted I was so proud that we werent like other religions, we didn’t have a hierarchy, we didn’t ask for money - what is going on!
Okay that's it for now, sorry for the rant -please post your crucial points, let's help each other see clearly. I'm retaining my faith in Jesus and Yahweh/Jehovah. Haven't been able to bring myself to study major doctrinal issues such as little flock, the flood etc yet.
Now what to do? Most of my immediate family are still in, I don’t want to lose them and my friends/community who are sincere and good people in the main. Frankly this whole thing process is completely torturous. -
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Any good answers at this Sunday's WT?
by Lemonp inobviously this weeks' wt has been part 3 of big changes in the doctrine.
at the end i answered up saying along the lines of: "as we can see from the illustration box, when it comes to the reward being given to the slaves, divine appointment was not given in 1919. this will happen in future when the anointed get taken before armageddon".
i couldn't bring myself to say "raptured at armageddon" as i think people might have taken a closer look at me...but it felt good to call out publicly the bull sh#t date of 1919 .
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Tornintwo
I've spent 3 weeks away from mtgs researching TTATT and this was my first mtg back, for family reasons.
The hall was very low on answers, the conductors wife had to answer about 10 times. Think the whole thing fell very flat. I failed to see the scriptural backing for this parable only applying to the anointed especially after 1919 and the master returning after the great tribulation. I didn't understand how the two slaves who did well we're 'literal' representations of the anointed but that the bad example was only figurative, as a warning. There wasn't a clear scriptural link to the preaching work as implied.
i checked some none jw bible commentaries and their explanations made more sense, some see the talents as any God given talent we all have, and some as the Christian faith we've learned . In each case the lesson is we should do our best to use our talents to the best, abounding in Christian works (not necessarily preaching), but kindness to fellowman etc .
this made more sense to me and think it would have encouraged the cong more to be applied to each individual directly, basically use what you have to be a better Christian, generally in conduct, good works etc, instead of being used just to induce guilt to do more hours
It seems to me that the GB used the illustration to promote themselves and to promote the preaching work of JWs, without clear scriptural backing for either.
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What triggered your doubts / awakening?
by Tornintwo ini am sort of new here, used a different username for a while but things got 'difficult' at home so i've since been lurking.... what i would be really interested to know, if you don't mind sharing, is what it was that triggered your doubts and initial research which led to awakening, was it a bad experience, injustice, changed doctrine?
for me, it was seeing mistreatment of young ones in the congregation, they're under so much pressure and as soon as they go even slightly astray they are shunned, either informally (as bad associations which pushes them further into the 'world') or formally - with elders dying to throw the book at them so they even lose their family.... ...then reading about child abuse issues in the press.... ...which led me to silentlambs.
...then jw facts, this forum and coc, wham!
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Tornintwo
Finkelstein, Sounds a bit like 'humanism', I went to a humanist wedding a few years ago when I was a very zealous jw, still I was very impressed -even then I thought, now that's a good alternative!
great answers - thank you all so much. What's really helpful about this site is that in our hypnotized stupor, there are so many things we have never analysed critically, so when someone else here raises a reason for their doubting/leaving, you have the opportunity to see something you'd missed, do some research and clear the fog a little more .
It's clear that the generation change had a big effect on a lot of you - it did nothing for me at the time, even though the teaching was one of the things that brought me into 'the truth' a few years earlier, I just thought, well it could be a bit longer but not that much longer . I find it quite amazing how the org gets millions of people to just swallow these fundamental changes without complaint. Now I'm awake, I see the front of the 1984 May watchtower and think, 'that's outrageous'! Just learned about it from a Cedars video and the great scripture Deut 18:22 which blows the org with its false predictions out of the water.
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What triggered your doubts / awakening?
by Tornintwo ini am sort of new here, used a different username for a while but things got 'difficult' at home so i've since been lurking.... what i would be really interested to know, if you don't mind sharing, is what it was that triggered your doubts and initial research which led to awakening, was it a bad experience, injustice, changed doctrine?
for me, it was seeing mistreatment of young ones in the congregation, they're under so much pressure and as soon as they go even slightly astray they are shunned, either informally (as bad associations which pushes them further into the 'world') or formally - with elders dying to throw the book at them so they even lose their family.... ...then reading about child abuse issues in the press.... ...which led me to silentlambs.
...then jw facts, this forum and coc, wham!
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Tornintwo
Where else would I go?
What a powerful thought-stopping technique, stopped me looking for a long time too.
i think if you are religious, want to maintain a faith then the answer is Jesus Christ, as it was when Peter said those words. If you aren't and you settle on atheism then the answer is, wherever you like!!!
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Anthony Morris human hot dogs
by Tornintwo ini am in complete shock!
bearing in mind i still class myself as 'doubting' and still have/had respect for some jw teachings, well i can't believe what i just listened to from a member of the governing body.
im sure a lot of you have seen this but for anyone new like me, you have to see this.
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Tornintwo
I am in complete shock! Bearing in mind I still class myself as 'doubting' and still have/had respect for some jw teachings, well I can't believe what I just listened to from a member of the governing body.
Im sure a lot of you have seen this but for anyone new like me, you have to see this
To talk about Armageddon dead like charred hot dogs, in front of children? Are you serious? this guy is supposed to be following in Christs footsteps? Jaw dropping.