Posts by Tornintwo

23

Is Lying a Disfellowshipping offence?

by stuckinarut2 in

so, if lying or being deliberately misleading is a "disfellowshipping" offence, why haven't the brothers who lied to the australian royal commission been brought before a judicial committee?

?.

Tornintwo

I know someone who was df'd for malicious lying so yes.

he was a pathological,liar and fraudster, the elders were advised to go with the malicious lying angle by the branch because the fraud was too difficult to prove.

56

Today's watchtower: obey us, no matter what

by Tornintwo in

today's watchtower:.

obey us, obey us even when it seems strange, obeying our man made hierarchy equates to obeying god, sacrifice your own interests, work for us, don't be independent, put your own interests aside, obey some more, preach for us, build for us, enjoy it, obey some more, forgive when we are jerks to you and mistreat you, accept your changed assignment even if it seems cruel and doesn't make sense, don't complain if we move you (eg.

) because you might have to move in the new world, remember you are being trained to obey, remember to put your own interests aside, that's the way we are designed to live - it will only make you happy!

Tornintwo

Its really the message of the whole article but here goes: “Independence and an unreasonable insistence on personal preference may be highly regarded by some, but what has been the result? Failure to accept God’s direction has led to suffering, misery, even tragedy. (Jer. 10:23) How we look forward to the time when all mankind will submit to Jehovah’s loving sovereignty!”
“But what if we were directed to perform a particular aspect of the work that did not appeal to us? Would we submit to that direction by doing our best to carry out and even enjoy our assignment? Most of us would answer yes! Consistently, then, are we submitting to theocratic direction now? If we are doing so, we are preparing for everlasting life under Jehovah’s rulership.”
“submitting to Jehovah’s present-day arrangements but also by working now to cultivate contentment and a spirit of cooperation. If we cooperate with those taking the lead today, perhaps finding contentment and joy in new assignments of service, we are likely to have the same attitude in the new world.”
"to cooperate with Jehovah’s organization and care for theocratic assignments.”

“some members of the Bethel family in the United States have been reassigned to the field and are now enjoying abundant blessings in other forms of the full-time ministry. Because of advancing age or other factors, others who were in the traveling work have now received special pioneer assignments. If we cultivate contentment, pray for God’s help, and do all we can in his service, we will experience joy and will receive many blessings even in these critical last day”

“If you are young and are giving serious consideration to a career in Jehovah’s service, why not review some of the material that has been published about various avenues of the full-time ministry and set one of these as a goal?”

“Does spending our time preparing for God’s new world mean forfeiting a better or more fulfilling way of life today? By no means! Serving Jehovah is the most satisfying way of life there is. It is not a matter of servitude under duress just so that we can pass through the great tribulation. It is the way we are designed to live, the way that yields the greatest joy”

“Personal interests and pleasures will have their place in God’s new world"

“Recreation and relaxation have their place, but the pleasure derived from them is increased when we put our relationship with Jehovah first”

56

Today's watchtower: obey us, no matter what

by Tornintwo in

today's watchtower:.

obey us, obey us even when it seems strange, obeying our man made hierarchy equates to obeying god, sacrifice your own interests, work for us, don't be independent, put your own interests aside, obey some more, preach for us, build for us, enjoy it, obey some more, forgive when we are jerks to you and mistreat you, accept your changed assignment even if it seems cruel and doesn't make sense, don't complain if we move you (eg.

) because you might have to move in the new world, remember you are being trained to obey, remember to put your own interests aside, that's the way we are designed to live - it will only make you happy!

Tornintwo

Today's watchtower:

obey us, obey us even when it seems strange, obeying our man made hierarchy equates to obeying God, sacrifice your own interests, work for us, don't be independent, put your own interests aside, obey some more, preach for us, build for us, enjoy it, obey some more, forgive when we are jerks to you and mistreat you, accept your changed assignment even if it seems cruel and doesn't make sense, don't complain if we move you (eg. to a different k.h.) because you might have to move in the new world, remember you are being trained to obey, remember to put your own interests aside, that's the way we are designed to live - it will only make you happy! Now is not the time for personal accomplishments, you should sacrifice yourself and obey...us, you'll be joyful!

If you do all this you'll get the fulfillment of all your hearts desires in the new world, you can even finally learn in your chosen "field of knowledge" so don't forget there is no need to fulfil any of your potential, get an education or to accomplish anything for yourself now.

OMG why didn't I see any of this before?

32

Elizabeth McFarland child abuse lawsuit on the news

by cedars in

hi folks.

i'm aware that there is already a thread on the newly-announced elizabeth mcfarland lawsuit, but i thought i would start a new thread for the benefit of lurkers showing the newly released news videos more prominently.. here they are.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfhrhrvm2c4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xegm1gunz2c.

Tornintwo

Anyone know what the outcome was in this case?

37

Jehovah’s Witness jailed for sexual activity with a child

by LevelThePlayingField in

source: http://stratfordobserver.co.uk/news/jehovahs-witness-jailed-for-sexual-activity-with-a-child-8997/.

a jehovahs witness from stratford who took part in sexual activity with a 15-year-old girl has been struggling with those demons for the last seven or eight years, a judge has heard.. but pleas for craig allen, who was said to have support from the jehovahs witness congregation, not to be jailed cut no ice with a judge at warwick crown court.. the 43 year-old of evesham road, dodwell, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.. prosecutor andrew wallace said allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.. the girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy allen, who had started to pay her compliments.. then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, allen sexually touched her.. she did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.. someone who suspected what was going on between allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.. but when she challenged both her daughter and allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.. things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.. she said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunted her.. when allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead.. elizabeth power, defending, said allen, who has a son and a daughter who were now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.. he did not force himself on her but he was the adult and she was a child.

he says he was weak and was attracted to her.

Tornintwo

Warehouse there is a big difference between normal, mutual consented teenage sexual experimentation and an adult taking advantage of a child. They are not equal, in fact the adolescent brain has not even finished forming, hence one is a criminal act and one is not.

You are sounding like you sympathise with this middle aged pervert and it's not making you look good.

40

Elders are Complicit with WT Society in Child Abuse Scandals- Gonzalo Campos Case

by flipper in

of course, most of us realize this.

however sometimes even on this board sometimes threads have stated that the jw elders have been occasionally painted as the " fall guys " who take the rap for the wt society leaders - which of course is true - to a degree.

however- that being said , many times elders have failed to protect - or even have failed to advocate for child abuse victims when it has been within their power to do so.

Tornintwo

When I first heard reports of child abuse in the org. I though they were probably sensationalized, I was still in. But now they are popping up everywhere and again and again we hear the same thing, the elders discouraged victims from going to the authorities and wouldn't go themselves so as not to bring reproach...... Never mind what any official party line is, these are the facts repeated in many different cases.

we also hear that it's perceived as a 'sin' not a crime, that abusers are reinstated, even reappointed

we hear that at one point the society said something along the lines that anyone previously a child abuser can NEVER have privileges in the congregation again, but then the October 2012 letter clarifies that is not necessarily the case, making loopholes so that these perverts can serve as elders again.

So all this coming together you have to ask yourself why? Why wouldn't they just boot any former child abuser out to obscurity, why not report to the authorities, why not support the victims??? Then an answer comes to you, one you don't want to believe but could well explain everything. Do you know what the answer could be? there are too damn many of them in this organization, this organization could well be riddled with pedophiles, so much so that to remove all their privileges and positions could cause serious upheaval. That would explain the sympathy towards the perpetrator, the cover ups, the abuse of the victim. It may sound sensational but I would not be surprised at all if a great many in the hierarchy of this org are guilty of or sympathetic towards this perversion and/or abuse.

37

Jehovah’s Witness jailed for sexual activity with a child

by LevelThePlayingField in

source: http://stratfordobserver.co.uk/news/jehovahs-witness-jailed-for-sexual-activity-with-a-child-8997/.

a jehovahs witness from stratford who took part in sexual activity with a 15-year-old girl has been struggling with those demons for the last seven or eight years, a judge has heard.. but pleas for craig allen, who was said to have support from the jehovahs witness congregation, not to be jailed cut no ice with a judge at warwick crown court.. the 43 year-old of evesham road, dodwell, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.. prosecutor andrew wallace said allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.. the girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy allen, who had started to pay her compliments.. then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, allen sexually touched her.. she did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.. someone who suspected what was going on between allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.. but when she challenged both her daughter and allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.. things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.. she said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunted her.. when allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead.. elizabeth power, defending, said allen, who has a son and a daughter who were now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.. he did not force himself on her but he was the adult and she was a child.

he says he was weak and was attracted to her.

Tornintwo

Warehouse....can't believe you just said that?!? - yes it's happened for centuries, it's called sexual exploitation of women (young ones especially) and as for 'consensual', I would guess it's happened more often with grooming, emotional or physical abuse. Thankfully modern society is waking up to the fact that thats NOT OKAY. Thankfully we are not in the dark ages or the third world.

9

You must be right Simon. I must be wrong.

by umbertoecho in

simon.

this is your forum.

for the rc have it all wrong.. i am wrong to follow the accurate guidance of these commissioners.

Tornintwo

I read the thread and it sounds (to me) like:

Umberto - is understandably worried about any victim being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous law firm.

Simon - understandably doesn't want to label a law firm as unscrupulous without knowing all facts, doesn't want people put off making a legitimate claim, wonders if there is an 'official recommended' list of law firms where victims can turn to

Umberto can't provide that information which I understand, because having been involved in a criminal case (not abuse thankfully), you are often warned not to tell anyone absolutely anything during the investigation phase.

Don't think any personal attack was meant on umberto though - I haven't been around long but reading your posts you are obviously a very brave woman who cares a lot about other victims. But also Simon always seems to be very balanced and reasonable so I am sure he didn't mean to upset you.

Perhaps the thread should just end with a word of advice:

Any victim seeking legal redress would be well advised to call the RC for advice first.

Sorry if I've got it wrong - no offense meant!

35

Hey! Wanted to say Hi!

by Miss Worldly in

jw
friends

hey!

i've been hanging around her for a while.

this is the third attempt at my 'hello'.

Tornintwo

Hi and welcome - we love 'worldlies' here! x

10

Neglect of Adolescents by the WTBTS - Excellent Article

by Tornintwo in

i have been thinking a lot about the lack of support, judgement and criticism of teenagers in the organisation.

i am dealing with the fallout of these policies with my two adolescents...i found this excellent article this morning which is worth a read for anyone interested in this topic - see the links below but first i also wanted to add my own bugbear, forgive the rant: .

a key factor which isn't mentioned in the article is the 'bad association' rule and it's extended application.

Tornintwo

I have been thinking a lot about the lack of support, judgement and criticism of teenagers in the organisation. I am dealing with the fallout of these policies with my two adolescents...I found this excellent article this morning which is worth a read for anyone interested in this topic - see the links below but first I also wanted to add my own bugbear, forgive the rant:

A key factor which isn't mentioned in the article is the 'bad association' rule and it's extended application. Firstly we have 'bad associations' in the world, so JW kids are told they shouldn't/can't associate with any children who are not 'Jehovah's friends' - school & neighbourhood friendships which form naturally in a normal setting are stunted, not able to progress to any real friendship with it's advantages of support and nurturing, because the witness kids can't go to the other kid's house or party or get-together.

Then we have the extended application - there are 'bad assocations' also in 'the truth'!!! 'beware anyone who is not spiritually strong' , 'be prepared to report on your friends to the elders' etc etc.. This leads to an atmosphere of judgement and suspicion between youths in the congregation and their parents. Time and again I have seen a teenager begin to waver, to be tempted by the 'world' - instead of pulling them into the heart of the congregation with love and support, the witnesses first response is to criticise. For example, one boy of 15 changed his haircut to a more 'worldly' style and started to exhibit a bit of attitude (all the while still regular in service, meetings and answers) - but this was all it took - gradually the witness invitations dried up....he's already struggling to resist the 'temptation' of hanging out with his other friends from school who are telling him how great he is and how much they want to spend more time with him - so what happens when the congregation members judge him as a bad assocation? According to WTBTS he should go home and pray more, maybe try to make friends with some brother in his 30s or 40s instead (weird). Totally unrealistic advice. Of course he's lonely and feels rejected, after weeks of sitting alone crying and praying, he finally starts to rebel against his parents' stand and hang out with his 'worldly' friends (how dare he!). Then what is the institutional response by this 'loving' community? The witness friends reject him completely, harsh discipline sometimes follows and either way the shunning begins.

The Watchtower has created an atmosphere for young people of judgementalism, criticism, suspicion, it wants youths to be subservient robot drones in order for them to be accepted. They are not permitted to explore their unique attributes or abilities (hence the ban on extracurricular acivities and higher education). It forces false friendships based on hierarchy & status in the congregation and shamelessly neglects the 'fatherless boys'. There are no organised social events or youth clubs, instead the emphasis is put on parents to arrange such, those parents who are already exhausted from the endless demands of meetings, ministry, family study, bible reading etc etc... Elders want their kids to be friends with other elders' kids, pioneers etc and so on and so on... The society's response - they would rather pioneers spend 70 hours driving in circles and knocking on empty doors in the service each month than a few hours encouraging the current young members of the congregation. They have got it SO, SO wrong - hence the hemorrhaging of young people from the organisation.

It would only be a good thing if it didn't leave such awful emotional scars and neglect vulnerable young people.

Read the full article here: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/young-ones-leaving.php

Some of the interesting paragraphs:

At what point do they begin to ask themselves if there is something that THEY are doing wrong? Ironically, they can’t do that, because the organization has already been identified and branded as a “spiritual banquet” where “nothing is lacking”. Therefore, if young people are uninspired, bored, or unmotivated to engage in the theocratic treadmill, Jehovah's Witnesses can simply blame it on the influences of MTV, high school, or on their favorite buzzword: the “world”.

It should be noted that the Soviets used the same methods of argumentation and reasoning – claiming that nothing was lacking in Mother Russia. Strangely, their newspapers only had good news to publish about the Soviet government, and only had bad news to report about Western democracies. If anyone defected, the leaders simply blamed it on American influence, the defector’s lack of gratitude, or on some horrible personal defect of the defector. Does this sound familiar?

...........................

Beside simple boredom, what we also see in the Watchtower organization are many emotionally troubled people and single parent families who join the religion for the promises of relief that it holds out for them. In situations such as this, I have often noticed that the kids don’t have much in the way of emotional support and guidance. Other churches give single parents some relief by offering activities and programs for their children to get involved in and bond with other young people. I have seen many really good kids in the organization totally get neglected because they didn’t have a father who was a Witness. Many of them had some very deep emotional issues that never got resolved. Additionally, it has been noted by many of us that when there is a family in which the father does not hold some kind of office, the family is often left out on the periphery without much social support. I have observed that children in families like this most often never thrive, and are swiftly on their way out by the time they reach teenage years.

......................................

With the recent crack-downs on college education, the Watchtower is looking less and less like a spiritual paradise, and is looking more like North Korea. What we see from regimes like North Korea is a disregard for many of the societal endeavors that make a nation stronger, such as infrastructure, good universities, economic freedoms, and democratic processes. Instead, all of the nation’s human capital is invested in one thing: warfare. The leader Kim Jong is so deluded that his idea of inspiring his people is to walk out on his balcony with his huge Elvis glasses and clap his hands. The Watchtower organization’s sole purpose is to proselytize, whereby all of its human capital must be channeled into that goal. Other programs that would make for a much stronger, robust, and enthusiastic membership are pushed aside and dismissed due their possibly interfering with proselytizing. Much like Kim Jong walking out and clapping his hands, the Watchtower’s idea of motivating its people is to deliver talks denouncing college, Watchtower articles ridiculing those who disagree with them, and the repetitive promise that the end is “just around the corner”. Are you inspired yet?

..............................

Those few born-in Jehovah's Witnesses who do stay in will pay an enormous price in that they will never have gotten to know who they really were. For them to stay in the organization and have an approved standing, they will have had to squash their inner self, and adopt an organizationally-created identity. Many will have had to cover over passions and talents that would have given their lives much greater meaning. Many of us here paid that price, only to wake up to it years later. But fortunately, after having been out for a number of years, many of us are getting to know who we really are and what gives our lives meaning.