i'll still be here, living on the side of a bluff by the mighty mississip'.
i'll still be grilling steaks and drinking beer in the warm sun.
i'll be driving my apostatruck, toting my shooting iron, spooking the herd, warming the globe.
RollerDave:
I am a Theist,and atheism abounded here. I am a conservative, and liberalism abounded here. I am a straight who does not wish to deal with homosexuality, neither to approve, nor to bash, but the gay talk here certainly abounded.
Strange. I've always found this place to be full of conservative theistic homophobes. Could it be that in reality there are a wide range of opinions expressed here that you're not used to dealing with?
just got a september '08 awake in my paws.. the cover asks "is there life beyond the grave".
they have a quote from forrest gump (of course he wasn't mentioned by name but i've seen the movie a million times).
it says roughly: in a movie a young man is shown standing by his mother's grave.
I thought it was going to be: "Stupid is as stupid does!"
Much more appropriate
the us missile defence system is the magic pudding that will never run outpoland is just the latest fall guy for an american foreign policy dictated by military industrial lobbyists in washingtonall comments (447)george monbiotthe guardian, tuesday august 19 2008 article historyit's a novel way to take your own life.
just as russia demonstrates what happens to former minions that annoy it, poland agrees to host a us missile defence base.
the russians, as poland expected, respond to this proposal by offering to turn the country into a parking lot.
Mmmm, magic pudding.....
On a more serious note, it does sometimes seem that the US misses the Cold War and is looking for a suitable new (or old) enemy. It's certainly going the right way about finding one.
this is a link to a recent post made on the grand-daddy of all jw forums, h20 - hourglass2outpost.. it is defintiely worth a read and i believe it is the only site that came to the attention of the society in the mid-90s.
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http://h2o.aimoo.com/international-open-forum-for-j/revival-of-h2o-1-1035639.html.
H2O's strategy to reform the Society as a religion and bring it into the prosperous, healthy and beneficial mainstream of the great religions like the Latter-Day Saints and Catholics.
Yikes! Hardly the most noble of goals.
why evolutionary biology is a crucial part of the curriculum .... .
optimism in evolution.
by olivia judsonlondon.
yknot:
Does Ireland have as much to offer in forms of financing experimental innovation as the US?
Of course not. Your population is around 80 times ours.
My comments were not based on any American myth, but the seeing of French, Czech, British, and German people coming over here to seek that financial gain of the fruits of their labors within the science and technology fields.
Yes, the US seems willing to pay top dollar for foreign scientists. It's almost as if there were a shortage of Americans with suitable qualifications.
Still, you do lead the world in creation research.
why evolutionary biology is a crucial part of the curriculum .... .
optimism in evolution.
by olivia judsonlondon.
yknot:
Just because you feel that evolution is "right" and "absolute" doesn't make it so.
Of course not. My feelings have nothing to do with it. The fact that evolution's a fact is what makes it a fact.
It is not a cornerstone of biology.........That comment is only a battle and rally cry of evolutionist
What are you talking about? You make it sound like the term "evolutionist" doesn't include just about everybody, when of course it does - certainly anybody working in biology. It's what turns biology from an exercise in cataloguing into an endlessly fascinating and rewarding field of discovery.
The your way or the highway position of evolution must be taught will not have any success. Evolutionist in many states are a minority voice amongst the populace. Bashing creationist will not help your cause. The name calling, fairy tale insinuations only act as proof of unreasonablness of evolutionary extremist, making it easier for creationist to dismiss everything which you are trying to convey.
Sure. I'm no politician, and to overcome people's irrational prejudices may take a lighter touch than mine. But your suggestion that we pander to people's irrational beliefs seems to me like it will just produce another generation of ignorant creationists.
So the question becomes how bad do evolutionist really want this actually taught to public school students?What are they willing to do in order to make it a reality?
So far.... just a lot of talk, and sour grapes name calling.
In most of the world this is of course a non-issue. People keep their religious beliefs out of the classroom and out of the workplace. To be honest, I don't know how to solve the problem. But I really really don't think that pretending that the creationist position is equivalent in any way to the evolutionist position will help. That is after all how the proponents of creationism in its varying guises have managed to sneak it in. By suggesting that there are two competing theories and that both should be taught, they make a superficially appealing case. But, in reality, there's no controversy. The views of creationists are purely religious views and have no place in a science class.
why evolutionary biology is a crucial part of the curriculum .... .
optimism in evolution.
by olivia judsonlondon.
yknot:
If evolutionist want more than that they will have to give up some speaking ground to those who disagree with evolution.
That's completely ludicrous. An important aspect of science is currently being taught poorly if at all. Your "solution" is to teach fairy tales as well, on the basis that if the fairy tales aren't allowed equal time, then the science won't be taught at all.
If not, things will continue as they have since the introduction of evolution into the textbooks.... which commonly is just a brief mention by the teacher followed by his/her disagreement on the theory due to creationism. If the student is interested, they may read the chapter themselves, but it will not be required to complete the course.
You are absolutely right that that is the problem (or at least part of it). Evolution is being ignored or disparaged by teachers with a religious agenda, and students have to teach themselves if they wish to get anything close to a useful education. But you are absolutely completely totally and utterly wrong about the solution - I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried. What needs to happen is for evolution to actually be taught properly by the people who are paid to teach it - and not for those with a religious agenda to be allowed to legitimise their unscientific beliefs by teaching them to impressionable young minds in a science class.
There is more to science then the theory of evolution.
Of course there is, but it's the cornerstone of biology, and needs to be taught as such.
why evolutionary biology is a crucial part of the curriculum .... .
optimism in evolution.
by olivia judsonlondon.
yknot:
Your dismissing comments towards compromise is the exact reason why this will never be anything more then an untaught chapter in public school science textbooks around the US for several decades to come.
What? It's my fault that your country's education system is going to hell in a handbasket? How do you figure that? Even if I had the slightest influence on anybody who could make a difference, how would that influence cause them to do the exact opposite of what I suggest? I'm advocating teaching science in science class, and you seem to be saying that unless I also agree that fairy-tales should be taught alongside it, then nothing at all will be taught. Where do you come up with this stuff?
why evolutionary biology is a crucial part of the curriculum .... .
optimism in evolution.
by olivia judsonlondon.
yknot:
Okay, then compromise..... you get the basics of evolution and they get the basics of intelligent design in the same discussion...........
I'm not entirely opposed to that. After giving the accepted scientific evidence-based answer to a question, a teacher could always add: "Of course some people think a magic man did it." It might be best simply to state this at the start of therm, that for every explanation given for any phenomenon there is probably someone somewhere who has a contradictory supernatural "explanation". That way, the minimum time necessary would be spent on such frivolities.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Perhaps, but surely you see the need for history teachers to also teach children that actually Rome was built in a day, or at least to teach both viewpoints and let them decide for themselves.
why evolutionary biology is a crucial part of the curriculum .... .
optimism in evolution.
by olivia judsonlondon.
yknot:
Technically speaking in your world of black and white and absolutes..... no it is not round!
It is fairly round. I know of course that the world is only approximately spherical being flattened at the poles and bulging slightly at the equator, as well as other minor imperfections that I would have gone into at length had this thread been about "round-earth theory" versus "flat-earth theory". I'd be happy if everybody who finished high school knew that the earth was spherical and if about half knew that it wasn't quite spherical. I'd be very happy with a similar level of knowledge about evolution. A grasp of the basics would do for most people. I'm as opposed to people trying to deny this to children as I would be if they were promoting "flat-earth theory", especially if they used the complicated nuances of "round-earth theory" to cast unwarranted doubt in the minds of those children.
Nope, evolution is subject to changes and rewrites based on future discoveries or interpretations of past opinions.
OK, I should have said that one side is right in broad principle and in most of the detail while the other side is completely wrong.
Evolution versus creationism is as debatable as trinity versus non trinity..... you can't fully prove one or the other absolutely.
Debates about the nature of imaginary beings certainly have no place in a science class, but you're right that if you allow such imaginary beings into the fray, anything can be debated forever without resolution. (See the entire history of religion for countless examples.)
Maybe you can in your mind but evolutionary science is not and never has been absolute.... variables are always in play.
Evolution is still a fact and should be taught as such.
I can not stress enough that science is taught but at present both of these two theories are being avoided and open for student's personal interpretation.
Evolution should be taught early in any biology course so that the rest of the course can be interesting and make sense. Creationism, having no scientific support, is unworthy of mention except perhaps to be debunked where children's minds have already been infected with it.
KingArthur:
Do try to use the quotes feature. It would make reading your posts a little easier, if no more rewarding.
Why do u assume those who disagree with you are ignorant?
I don't. I'm asserting that those who have demonstrated that they do not understand even the basics of evolutionary theory are ignorant of that theory. I have supported this claim in considerable detail. The only assumption I make is that these people are genuinely ignorant and not just pretending to be.
this ought to answer the arrogant part derrick.
Perhaps you're mistaking for arrogance the esteem in which I hold knowledge as opposed to ignorance. The fact that in this case it's my knowledge is incidental.
You never answer my question, what have your read or know.
Why should I? It's not relevant to the thread. My claims are either correct or not. If you believe they are not, then please state why. If you merely believe that my posting about this subject is indicative of a personality flaw, then you're not adding anything useful to the discussion.
I did not mean this literally.
So I'm arrogant in a figurative sense?
When I was a Jw I remember an elder saying “there are only MS and Elders and Pioneer everyone else is a nothing” Was that you Derrick? Were you an arrogant elder who has become an arrogant an ex-jw?
Ah, I think I see it now. You were made to feel inadequate as a JW so now anybody who makes you feel inadequate gets compared to those who made you feel that way in the past. You should probably see someone about this.
I guess you must know I have your number.
Ha! You can't even get my name right.
