Posts by garybuss

11

CHRISTMAS?

by Honesty in

jw
friends

is it just for pagans?

I don't know about pagans. I like Christmas. I like the change in pace, the music, the family gatherings, the decorations, and the food. Now, I'm looking forward to Thanksgiving. I celebrate any and all festivals. There's more at Christmas holiday season for the children and I like that.

I only had one Christmas as a child (my 4th year) but I remember the feelings and the excitement and not being able to get to sleep Christmas eve. I remember the cold morning and the coal fire in the Warm Morning stove that sat on a piece of tin in the living room.

That was the year we lived with my mother's parents in Pipestone Minnesota. One of my pastimes was pounding nails in an outdated Montgomery Wards mail order catalog that was kept under the wood fired cook stove in the kitchen. There was a German made Cuckoo clock in the corner of the kitchen by the back door and an oil cloth on the scarred oak kitchen table.

I don't remember the gifts very well . . . a wind up train that ran on a three rail steel track . . . but I remember the excitement and the relatives dropping by with snacks and treats. The adults were in a better mood than usual and after it was over, there was a letdown sort of.

The next thing to look forward to was on New Year's day Grandpa would go out on the boardwalk outside the back porch and fire his shotgun in the air once. The other time of the year he did that was the 4th of July.

I'm glad I had that one Christmas.

34

My wife was in major JW mode last night, a few questions/comments I had

by insearchoftruth in

well last evening, after a pretty normal afternoon, my wife went out and when she came back she was pretty hyped up about the truth....she started to ask me some questions.....she started with the trinity (they gave her another copy of the trinity brochure yesterday) and all i did there was ask her to look at the first four verses of john, the verses in colossians where the wts added (other) and then the first bit of genesis....then simply asked the question...who created the heavens and the earth?

she went on a fact finding mission, never got an answer..... .

well of course she could not end with that....so she started on the existence of hell.....well question for you all here, she read some of the recent public edition wt and it talks about satan being subject to torment...in wts teaching is there a 'hell' for satan.. .

garybuss

That's not my idea of a marriage. I'd rather live alone.

11

Need help with current JW position's on DF'g

by Grouper in

jw
friends

here is the gist of things:

elders came to my home asking if charges of adultery against me are true (going through divorce).

i state to them that i wish not to discuss matters with them since this is a personal matter and if in the future i change my mind i will seek them.

garybuss

The elders can't make good family be bad. The elders are not a threat to me if I have good family. If the family is a bad family, then who cares if they shun me? I don't want people in my life who even "might" shun me if they are told to do so by a third party. People who use the threat of shunning to control me don't meet my minimum standards for required character ethics needed to associate with me.

I'm happy if mean people with bad characters are identified and removed from my life. When they're all gone, that only leaves nice people with good character in my life. That has made for a good life for me. No way do I wish it could be different.

I've found that the best thing between me and a mean spirited Jehovah's Witnesses is distance . . . I've found 100 miles to be a good minimum number to work with.

33

Around what age do most Witnesses leave the organization?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

my congregation had 85 members ten years ago.

today,there are only 46. the ones that left the organization were mostly between 18-25 years old.

i haven't seen many middle-aged or elderly leave.

garybuss

Good thread. Thanks for starting it.

I quit associating physically when I was 30. More than a few of the Witness people had become so offensive to me that they made even peripheral association something I didn't want to do. I was an unpaid volunteer and they were giving me crap and being mean to me any my family. That's a good way to loose this unpaid volunteer.

I seem to be hardwired on the skeptical side. By the time I was 21 there was little of the Witness mystic dogmatism that I accepted. I went along 9 more years as a social Witness. I had been raised by zealous believing Witness parents. The Witness culture was mostly all I knew. I was comfortable in the Witness culture until the Witness people made it uncomfortable.

I married a Witness woman, she died, and I married another Witness woman. By adolescence, for me, Witnessism was more of a habit than a belief. When it became more painful to stay than leave, I left.

I had been out for years before I went back in my mind and looked at Witnessism objectively and challenged my core beliefs. Core beliefs that were almost universally flawed. Of course this set me on a collision course with the believing Witnesses in my life. At the time, I wasn't aware of the severity of the impending collision or the predictability of the aftermath.

I'd handle many things differently if I had it to do over (with the benefit of my current knowledge and experience). The problem with that is . . . the rude Witness people were my motivations to do the work that put me where I am today. So, that which I would have skipped was a necessary component. That just leaves acceptance, and maybe someday . . . indifference, as the resting place.

12

Does life begin at conception?

by Country Girl in

jw
friends

just curious about this.

there have been a few times in criminal history when a person was charged with killing a woman, and an additional murder charge was added on for killing her fetus if she was pregnant.

seems to be a prosecutor's paradise.

garybuss

Does life begin at conception?

Mine did.

16

Can you successfully debate with a Jehovah's Witness?

by digderidoo in

jw
friends

the answer is no way if they are very diehard jws.

garybuss

A debate is an exchange of intelligence, an argument is an exchange of ignorance. Believing Witnesses I know argue, they do not debate. By definition, they can't.

12

Indoctrination of children into the Watchtower Society

by Homerovah the Almighty in

pulling off from another thread, the topic of children and the watchtower comes into high lighted consideration,.

there is little doubt on the enormous psychological effects the wts's mental indoctrination has in the developmental growth of children.. i personally went through this myself as you folks as well, so i can relate to the experience.. goaling people to become servitude slaves for the needs of the society in support of both their identity and financial needs is in itself disturbing.. plying the same tactics on to impressionable children and schooling them into being door to door publishers is nothing more but disgraceful.

and borders on criminal.

garybuss

This is from my files. I like it a lot. I didn't write it. I can't remember who wrote it.

**********

The Art of Inculcation

The word inculcate comes from the Latin word inculcatus, which means 'to trample' (from calx, calc-, heel) Inculcation is a unique type of instruction that is designed to slowly trample down an individual's reasoning ability and self-worth. As self-worth wanes, faith-in-self is replaced by faith in the organization doing the inculcating. Religious organizations that inculcate prefer to describe their activities with euphemisms like religious instruction or religious training..

The word religion comes from the Latin word ligare, which means 'to bind'. An English derivative is the word ligature. When inculcation is combined with religion, an individual can be emotionally trampled down and bound.
The goal is control. Like the Japanese art of binding the growth of a tree

-- bonsai?binding the reasoning ability of a human mind is best begun at an early age.

Some factors that facilitate inculcation are:
*Children need the attention of adults.

* A child equates almost any form of attention with love - - and only rarely looks back objectively for the remainder of his or her life.

* Young children have a tendency to believe what they are told by adults and by older children.

* When a charismatic person passionately believes something?whether it be true or not?he or she becomes a convincing salesman.

* That which children perceive as reality can be molded by repeated suggestion from key adult leaders and peer group pressure.

The targets of inculcation are gently anesthetized by the attention they receive. The perception of love is a potent anesthetic?so few of the children who are being inculcated are likely to realize what is taking place.

Some obstacles to inculcation are:

* Beyond the age of about five years, children become increasingly able to separate reality from fiction.

* The ideas that children are exposed to during inculcation must be protected from open discussion outside the classroom.

The mind of a child can be programmed for a lifetime by adults who operate under the warm, fuzzy aura of love and repeat a blend of truths and myths often enough to make a lasting impression.

There are no deliberately deceptive persons at work here. Those doing the inculcation?the inculcators?were similarly warm-fuzzied and molded by the same techniques during their most impressionable years. The inculcators are sincere, they are innocent victims?and they help to make more innocent victims. We are blinded by what we perceive as love.

Most people need and enjoy open discussion. TV and radio talk shows enjoy high ratings. Talking about problems is how people overcome problems. However, it's also how people separate fact from fiction. Since delusive concepts are vulnerable in the light of day, open discussion is inculcation's eternal enemy. To satisfy the human need to talk things over, carefully-controlled discussion may be incorporated into religious inculcation. To further preclude the possibility of truly open discussion, children may be cautioned (at the risk of being a traitor to 'God's Holy Family') not to discuss everything that goes on in religion class with outsiders. One may presume that dire consequences beyond the grave awaits such traitors.

When an inculcated person reaches a specified age, usually between the ages of eight to sixteen, he or she will be called upon to formally join the organization. The initiation ceremony is sometimes called confirmation. The initiate confirms the church hierarchy's teaching and thereby submits to the authority of the hierarchy and its dominant male. The person who is being confirmed/initiated may be required to kiss the ring of a supposedly superior holy man?the equivalent of kissing the royal ring to show obedience to the king. The name of the game is seemingly submission and domination. The payoff is respect. The respect must be automatic and devoid of consideration as to whether the superior person deserves respect or not.

Ring-kissing is a traditional form of showing respect. Holy men take ring kissing rather seriously. One of the alleged crimes of Joan of Arc (1412?-1431, French name Jeanne d'Arc) -- the 17 year old woman who saved France from the English invaders?was that she did not prevent her admirers from spontaneously kissing a simple ring she wore, inscribed:

"Mary and Jesus." This ring was given to her by Joan's mother and father. For this and other so-called crimes against God's Holy Church?Joan was judged guilty by a panel of priests, raped, and burned alive in an "Act of Faith" celebration.

When inculcated children grow up and have families, they unconsciously assist in preparing their own children for inculcation. Consequently, the inculcators will only need to reinforce and build upon the basics that the children were already exposed to at home.

Inculcation is designed to produce individuals who are dependent on the organization doing the inculcating. The organization claims to have everything of value. The child is expected to show up, show respect, keep quiet, and listen. Inculcation is also designed to produce individuals who bring cash to the organization. In Mormon inculcation classes, giving a minimum of 10% to the church is advanced as an unquestionable holy duty. In the Roman church's inculcation classes, the idea of bringing cash donations is introduced around the age of six.

To keep the ball rolling in a power-bent organized religion, no marriage is performed unless both parties indicate their intention to put their children through the organization's inculcation system. In the event that both parents die, the obligation of exposing the children to the inculcation system falls upon the godparents. All of the bases are covered. As a result, children are likely to be coerced to attend religious inculcation classes as well as religious services. However, when a child is repeatedly coerced or forced into situations where he or she is not given choices, problems can result. One of the most insidious problems is lowered self-esteem.

"If I did not go to Mass, I could not eat that day. The family sat around the table and I was alone in the corner. If I missed confession, I could not eat with the family. Nobody spoke to me. Nobody was allowed to comfort me. All this was done in the name of God. It was the silence that hurt; it is the silence that I remember." - Paul, age 28.

Controlling the reasoning ability and the emotions of a young mind requires less time than one might presume. The Roman church hierarchy has stated that, if they have access to a child through the age of six, that child will be theirs for life. The Mormon church, seems to feel that their inculcation program will have succeeded by the time a child reaches the age of eight.

28

Interesting Local Needs Talk: Don't Invite Studies To "Our" Get Togethers

by minimus in

jw
friends

i heard that the most recent local needs talk was regarding the evils of having non witnesses at "our" gatherings.

since there's nothing really for "us" to talk to "them" about, and since "their" conversation will not involve anything to do with "the truth", we should guard against "worldly" association.

it appears that the cult wants their members totally removed from anyone not a witness.