pomegranate,
Long on grandliquoence, short on facts.
Why is it that those who would speak up for God cannot do it without lying - most of all to themselves.
Gedanken
Gedanken
JoinedPosts by Gedanken
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85
Creation: The big and the small of it
by Zechariah inmore than any time in history respect and the awe of god has seriously eroded .
man has taken creation for granted and have allowed themselves to believe that no intelligence was required in the making of the universe.
random impersonal forces they delude themselves could have caused all we see in the universe.
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85
Creation: The big and the small of it
by Zechariah inmore than any time in history respect and the awe of god has seriously eroded .
man has taken creation for granted and have allowed themselves to believe that no intelligence was required in the making of the universe.
random impersonal forces they delude themselves could have caused all we see in the universe.
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Gedanken
jriszo,
I notice that, as is typical, you ignored the main points. But to answer your question, the relevance of the specific remark you quoted is that religious "belief" has been notorious for holding back scientific progress. That has been the case for centuries - and it still is.
Really it boils down to the symbiosis between people who are ill educated, ignorant and full of superstitious fear and those who can exploit those feelings. Go figure who is who.
If you think that parrotting a few facts and non facts from the worldbook encyclopedia, and the notion that God lives on an electron is "food for thought" then God only knows what you would consider nonsense to be.
Gedanken
ps: the difference between the KH and scientific debate is that substantive arguments will win out against the entire scientific establishment - provide dthey are substantive. But the sheer nonsense propagated by thos eignorant of science will not. What you fail to understand is that no matter what evidence is presented, you cannot, and will not let go of what you "know" to be "the truth." So who's more like a dub, you or me?
Edited by - Gedanken on 23 October 2002 16:26:25
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85
Creation: The big and the small of it
by Zechariah inmore than any time in history respect and the awe of god has seriously eroded .
man has taken creation for granted and have allowed themselves to believe that no intelligence was required in the making of the universe.
random impersonal forces they delude themselves could have caused all we see in the universe.
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Gedanken
Oh, I totally missed this bit of nonsense:
:* The electrons whirl through the space around the nucleus completing billions of trips around the nucleus each millionth of a second. The fantastic speed of these electrons makes atoms behave as if they were solid like the moving blades of a fan prevents a pencil from being pushed through.
What garbage - check out Rutherford's Gold Foil alpha-scattering experiment - it's discussed in all introductory Chemistry texts. If you spout such nonsense on even the most elementary aspects of science, how are you qualified to comment on more complex issues such as evolution.
Gedanken
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85
Creation: The big and the small of it
by Zechariah inmore than any time in history respect and the awe of god has seriously eroded .
man has taken creation for granted and have allowed themselves to believe that no intelligence was required in the making of the universe.
random impersonal forces they delude themselves could have caused all we see in the universe.
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Gedanken
Zechariah,
You understand little or nothing about science - actually, probably less than nothing. The same sorts of scientists who made the discoveries which allow you to tabulate your list of "facts from introductory physics" also discovered the evidence for evolution. By focussing on abiogenesis you miss the point that abundant evidence exists for evolution of species.
You also totally fail to see the difference between a scientist and a creationist. A creationist cannot conceive of his or her beliefs being wrong. So, all new data must conform to preconceived beliefs. A scientist, on the other hand, really couldn't care less personally whether any theory or not is correct. No scientist would lose sleep if they found out that life came about because aliens seeded the planet. They would be excited. If God turned out to exist and have created life, and had also every-so-often destroyed the majority of species for the fun of it - well, that would be interesting too.Personally, though, I don't know why anyone would want to worship a God who invented smallpox, the black death, komodo dragons and religion.
That's the difference between the scientific method and the idicy - for it is that - that you expound - were all people to think like you then we would still be torturing people for not believing that the Earth is the center of the Universe. I'd vote for a an atheist woman for president any day - just look how bloodthirsty all these born again Christian men are!
I'd also add that any scientist who could overthrow the idea of evolution would get a nobel prize. That's how science works - the incentive is to destroy current theories because that provides a true test of their viability.
gedanken
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Another One Of Those Caption Thingies....
by Englishman in.
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..i was a bit younger then, btw.. englishman.
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Gedanken
*** w56 7/1 397 What Dedication Means to Me ***
6 Just look at the gods the peoples all around us in the old world are serving. Even some of Jehovah's people have started to emulate those in the world by succumbing to animal worship. They are proud, high-minded, and put their personal honor, reputation and pets above all else. They make their pet their god, think only of its litterbox, and seek at all times the pleasures and gratifications of the petshop. Still others give their devotion and praise to flying creatures of the heavens including parrots, cockatoos and magpies. Expensive and exotic birdseeds are the "almighty" things to these people and they will make great sacrifices to gain these seeds for their avian companions whom they exonnerate above even God. And so it is in the old world today: people are so devoted and dedicated to their pet mice, their tortoises, having the latest birdcage, constructing an ant farm, or spending excess time with their cat, that they have no time to devote attention to the pure worship and service of the only living and true God, "whose name alone is JEHOVAH."-Ps. 83:18.7 When a person comes out of and abandons this old system of things it is only reasonable that he should stop loving and serving its many false, animalistic gods. Jehovah is absolutely right when he insists that such a person give his exclusive devotion to Him and have his pets destroyed. We have heard of some who have passed their pets on to others in the congregation so as to "make room for it." But is this not simply transferring a burdensome load to our fellow sufferers in the Christ? Far better to do as Jesus recommended - for, would not the injunction to tear out our very eye if it impeded us not apply also to our pet? The apostle John appreciated the rightness of this divine requirement and so he wrote to Christians: "Do not be loving either the [animal] world or the things in the [animal] world. If anyone loves the [animal] world, the love of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world-the desire of the [fish] and the desire of the eyes [elaborately colored tropical, or even worse, for they require more care, marine fish] and the showy display of [one's highly colored pet birds] .... originates with the world.
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56
Don't believe in Evolution or Creation.
by sleepy in.
what am i going to do , i'm not fully convinced by evolution or creation arguments.. they are both flawed in different ways, and suffer from a lack of evidence.although change through evolution does happen how far this can go is unknown.complexity from design does happen but usually leaves evidence .also no theories can go far enought in answering the ultimate questions.evolution relies on a universe that springs into existance, creation on a god that does so.evolution requires many complex and unlikely senarios in order to have happened so does creation.the fossil record is incomplete and without the missing pieces we can only infer what else should be there.god is either very shy or has lost his voice and dosen't seem bothered to prove his existance.. yet i exist, and the very heart of my being , the conscious mind is one of the least understood phenomenons in the universe.
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Gedanken
sleepy,
Sure. But isn't that the problem? People not really understanding exactly what the terms they are using actually mean. There can be no doubt that life has evolved if one honestly considers the facts. It really is as factual as the existence of gravity. Most arguments are about "theories of evolution" which many people think means that evolution is not a fact.
dubla - I think it is now self-evident that sleepy (and you) was talking about something else than the subject matter in the thread i.e., abiogenesis. That's fine, but the number of times this distinction has been made on this board and h2o before it makes it a bit tedious to keep going over old ground. Respectfully, it's really a good idea to marshall one's arguments and facts before entering into such a discussion.
Gedanken
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56
Don't believe in Evolution or Creation.
by sleepy in.
what am i going to do , i'm not fully convinced by evolution or creation arguments.. they are both flawed in different ways, and suffer from a lack of evidence.although change through evolution does happen how far this can go is unknown.complexity from design does happen but usually leaves evidence .also no theories can go far enought in answering the ultimate questions.evolution relies on a universe that springs into existance, creation on a god that does so.evolution requires many complex and unlikely senarios in order to have happened so does creation.the fossil record is incomplete and without the missing pieces we can only infer what else should be there.god is either very shy or has lost his voice and dosen't seem bothered to prove his existance.. yet i exist, and the very heart of my being , the conscious mind is one of the least understood phenomenons in the universe.
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Gedanken
Iarc,
While it's true that evolution and atheism are not necessarily related, it is the case that Creationism - part of the topic of this thread - is related to a belief in God. Creationists don't like evolution not simply because it goes a literal reading of Genesis, but because it onvolves a way of thinking that, as you point out, reduces "belief in God" to a matter of philosophy as opposed to being deducible from observation. In other words, pursuing the scientific method leads to the conclusion that there is no evidence for God's existence.
Gedanken
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56
Don't believe in Evolution or Creation.
by sleepy in.
what am i going to do , i'm not fully convinced by evolution or creation arguments.. they are both flawed in different ways, and suffer from a lack of evidence.although change through evolution does happen how far this can go is unknown.complexity from design does happen but usually leaves evidence .also no theories can go far enought in answering the ultimate questions.evolution relies on a universe that springs into existance, creation on a god that does so.evolution requires many complex and unlikely senarios in order to have happened so does creation.the fossil record is incomplete and without the missing pieces we can only infer what else should be there.god is either very shy or has lost his voice and dosen't seem bothered to prove his existance.. yet i exist, and the very heart of my being , the conscious mind is one of the least understood phenomenons in the universe.
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Gedanken
Carmel,
It is interesting how the steady advance of science has debunked all of the silly religious superstitions based on theological "certainty" which is really fundamentalist ideological fanaticism - the Earth is the center of the Universe, etc. God is useful only when it comes to the unknowable or the invisible. Once the matter is investigated God recedes further from reality.
Actually, it was a tremendous relief for me to dump the notion of a Creator. I'd hate to think that an intelligent being could be responsible for all the suffering in the world, which is a pretty ugly place. Just think of how many sentient creatures - cows, lambs, mice, deer, etc. - are ruthlessly slaughtered and tortured to death every day. And let's not forget the brutality of humans to one another. And still many cling to the belief that God made it all. Really, evolution has gotten God off a giant hook.
Gedanken
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56
Don't believe in Evolution or Creation.
by sleepy in.
what am i going to do , i'm not fully convinced by evolution or creation arguments.. they are both flawed in different ways, and suffer from a lack of evidence.although change through evolution does happen how far this can go is unknown.complexity from design does happen but usually leaves evidence .also no theories can go far enought in answering the ultimate questions.evolution relies on a universe that springs into existance, creation on a god that does so.evolution requires many complex and unlikely senarios in order to have happened so does creation.the fossil record is incomplete and without the missing pieces we can only infer what else should be there.god is either very shy or has lost his voice and dosen't seem bothered to prove his existance.. yet i exist, and the very heart of my being , the conscious mind is one of the least understood phenomenons in the universe.
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Gedanken
dubla,
I'm not confusing the issue - you are. Anyone who says that they don't know whether to believe in evolution or not is either (i) totally ignorant of the factual evidence or (ii) talking about the theory of evolution rather than the fact that things evolved. Somone can be legitimately unsure about the theory of gravity but only an idiot would deny that gravity exists.
If evolution were not tied so closely to beliefs that people hold near and dear than this would not be an issue at all, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread. In what other field of learning do you find people who are barely able to write a complete sentence challenging the findings of years of careful research. No professional biologist in the world denies the fact of evolution and even the world's major religions have had to accept the evidence. It is simply silly for people who have obviously not studied the issue to claim that their gut feel is correct. Further, their gut feel is just inherited superstition passed down through the ages. Have you ever heard of a an evolutionist converting to Creationism? The opposite happens all the time.
Here's two challenges:
(i) Simon, how about starting a focus thread on evolution with the ground rules being that participants who resort to insults are ignored (self-enforced). Can the creationists here step up to the plate and not only explain why evolution didn't happen but put forth a compelling argument for Creation. Nothing I've seen on this board - or elsewhere - comes even close. The best Creationists can do is to complain that they are having their "intelligence" insulted. Well, it's frustrating trying to debate with people who not only don't have a clue but refuse to get one.
(ii) Since the Creationists are so smart - why not branch out into other areas of scientific endeavor. Why not come up with a cure for cancer, or a clean fusion reactor, or a way to travel to Mars. How about inventing a 132 bit 20 GHz cpu. Creationists's denial of the evidence for evolution is no less ridiculous - actually more ridculous - than them all trying to do as I suggest.
Gedanken
Edited by - Gedanken on 7 August 2002 17:14:42
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Don't believe in Evolution or Creation.
by sleepy in.
what am i going to do , i'm not fully convinced by evolution or creation arguments.. they are both flawed in different ways, and suffer from a lack of evidence.although change through evolution does happen how far this can go is unknown.complexity from design does happen but usually leaves evidence .also no theories can go far enought in answering the ultimate questions.evolution relies on a universe that springs into existance, creation on a god that does so.evolution requires many complex and unlikely senarios in order to have happened so does creation.the fossil record is incomplete and without the missing pieces we can only infer what else should be there.god is either very shy or has lost his voice and dosen't seem bothered to prove his existance.. yet i exist, and the very heart of my being , the conscious mind is one of the least understood phenomenons in the universe.
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Gedanken
Sleepy,
While I agree that gravity and evolution are two different things, I was focussing on what a "theory" is. Your post actually was talking about the theory of evolution - that is, the explanation of how evolution happened. That's a matter of debate. The theory of gravity, similarly, is an explanation of the fact of gravity. Evolution is a fact. How it happened is much less well understood. Just because we don't understand how something happens (e.g., gravity) doesn't mean that it doesn't happen (e.g., gravity.)
Metatron - thanks! How are you? Good points - the ultimate cause, if any, is a real puzzler. Evolution wouldn't happen if it were simply random, entropy would take care of that. But selection for superior fitness pulls out of the randomness the superior individuals. A whole branch of computer science is based on that, and used for such mundane things as designing the most efficient irrigation systems!
gedanken
Edited by - Gedanken on 7 August 2002 12:27:18