Posts by Fadeout

54

WTS: creative days took aeons - WT Feb 15th, 2011

by undercover in

there's already a couple of threads discussing this particular issue of kool-aid version of the wt, but i just had to start another after reading about the creative days mentioned in this issue.. we debate from time to time if the wts has ever officially retracted their doctrine that the earth and all things created are less than 50,000 years old.

there's been some quotes that show them waffling on the age of the planet itself but still sort of holding to the notion of all creation happening within a defineable 7 day period.

how long is a creative day?

Fadeout

sir82:

Maybe Jaracz was a hardliner for "7000 year-long creative days" and all the writing staff was too afraid to cross him.

Now that he's gone, it's "safe" to stretch a creative day from 7000 years to an "aeon".

Maybe Jaracz's death will prompt a flurry of new light?

That could be, it certainly would follow the precedent set by the death of other WT heavies. Even though the "1914 generation" was a point of ridicule years before Fred Franz died, it wasn't until he was gone that it was changed. And if I'm not mistaken, the first time that 1914 was stated in print to be the date of Jesus' return was just after Rutherford's death, in 1943. Going further back, Russell's death prompted the publication of The Finished Mystery which included new prophecies for 1918 and 1920, and was full of "new light" regarding various Biblical interpretations.

54

WTS: creative days took aeons - WT Feb 15th, 2011

by undercover in

there's already a couple of threads discussing this particular issue of kool-aid version of the wt, but i just had to start another after reading about the creative days mentioned in this issue.. we debate from time to time if the wts has ever officially retracted their doctrine that the earth and all things created are less than 50,000 years old.

there's been some quotes that show them waffling on the age of the planet itself but still sort of holding to the notion of all creation happening within a defineable 7 day period.

how long is a creative day?

Fadeout

7,000 years? A laughable notion. The Society never taught that. There is no change...

At times explanations given by Jehovah's visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case. -12/1/1981 WT

These aren't the droids you're looking for and we've always been at war with Eurasia.

443

Generation Teaching - Everyone is speechless?

by Red Piller in

jw
friends

maybe the effect of this change is bigger than realized?

in 1995, it was discussed (positively) by everybody, during the week we studied the wt.

one elder stepped down and was looked down upon.

Fadeout

djeggnog wrote:

If you were raised to believe the Watchtower magazine was God's approved instrument of communication with mankind, then this instruction was incorrect.

The Watchtower wrote:

Christ Jesus has caused the understanding of the prophetic dramas and pictures to be made clear and set forth in the WATCTHOWER publications. -12/15/1942 WT p376

So let's review. The Watchtower magazine is NOT God's approved instrument of communication with mankind. Also, Christ Jesus causes understanding of Bible teachings to be published in the WT publications (which of course include the Watchtower magazine).

So Jesus uses the Watchtower magazine, a form of communication not approved by God, to communicate with us. This is illogical.

The Watchtower wrote:

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is the greatest corporation in the world, because from the time of its organization until now the Lord has used it as his channel through which to make known the glad tidings. -1/15/1917 WT p22

If the Society is the Lord's channel of communication, why is the Watchtower not a God-approved method of communication?

The Watchtower wrote:

It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant scriptural counsel to his people. -5/1/1964 WT p277

And now Jehovah himself is communicating using the unapproved Watchtower magazine? Doesn't fit.

@djeggnog, you're openly disagreeing with the Society. I think that's great.

37

Black People Would Become White in the Paradise?

by God_Delusion in

i have just been informed that the watchtower society lovingly stated that all black people would become, over time, white.

this would happen when the earth is to become a paradise.. please tell me that what i have heard are the mutterings of a fool and can't possibly be true!.

my wife is of mixed-race origin and i quite like her the way she is.

Fadeout

Not only did the Watchtower print the above, but they afterward had the gall to criticize the Catholic church for also teaching that the curse of Ham applied to blacks... even though the Catholics abandoned the teaching well before the Watchtower did!

Have the churches of Christendom always treated “everyone on the same basis”? Consider how the Catholic and Lutheran Churches supported Hitler’s scheme to produce a “master race.” And for centuries the Catholic Church taught that Negroes were a cursed race. John F. Maxwell states in his book Slavery and the Catholic Church that this view “apparently survived until 1873 when Pope Pius IX attached an indulgence to a prayer for the ‘wretched Ethiopians in Central Africa that almighty God may at length remove the curse of Cham [Ham] from their hearts.’” (Italics ours) –Feb 8 1982 Awake!

It's worth noting that The Watchtower had only officially repudiated that teaching a mere five years earlier.

The truth is, blacks are not, and never were, cursed by God! -Oct 8 1977 Awake!

So a quick review shows:

1873- Catholics: Blacks are cursed by God

1929- Watchtower: Blacks are cursed by God

1977- Watchtower: Blacks are not cursed by God

1982- Watchtower: Can you believe that up to 1873 the stupid Catholics taught that blacks are cursed by God? Lol!

443

Generation Teaching - Everyone is speechless?

by Red Piller in

jw
friends

maybe the effect of this change is bigger than realized?

in 1995, it was discussed (positively) by everybody, during the week we studied the wt.

one elder stepped down and was looked down upon.

Fadeout

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and choose to disagree respectfully even with those who hold views I find offensive. I will gladly point out the flaws in their argument, though refrain from insulting their intelligence or personal character, as not only is this conduct unbecoming, but it is counterproductive when trying to make one's point of view accessible to an opponent. I also happen to believe that intellectual honesty demands such an approach.

Many people are capable of comporting themselves in such a manner during even heated debate. Djeggnog, unfortunately, has proven not to be one of these. I have yet to find a devout JW who is.

In the cosmology of the Witnesses, keep in mind, there is no valid reason for open disagreement with the Society, much less valid reason for leaving the organization or actually arguing in opposition to it. A person's actions invariably betray their "heart condition"-- that is, their basic "goodness" or "wickedness" and ultimately, worthiness or unworthiness of life. "Apostates" and "opposers" have bad motives; namely, to "shipwreck the faith" of faithful Christians. They are essentially cartoonish Emmanuel Goldsteins who, filled with hate, serve as channels for Satan and the demons to work through. Remember the warning of The Watchtower:

"Satan's influence through the disfellowshipped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshipped member in his course or in his position toward God's organization." -WT 11/15/52

Thus, like King Saul, we have wholly turned against God and are now merely pawns of Satan. Should any faithful Christian feel the need to show respect, or even to be intellectually honest with such persons? Need a faithful servant of Jehovah seriously consider any argument such an evildoer might make? In other words... do any of us actually expect to get anything but Watchtower cultspeak in response to any question we might ask? I am reminded of how similarly I thought it appropriate to behave when I believed the WTS to be God's approved instrument.

Despite his understandably condescending and arrogant demeanor, djeggnog did make an intriguing point I must respond to:

"did you conclude that what you read in the Awake! magazine trumped what you read in the Bible? Yes or no? If your response to this question is "yes," do you agree that such a conclusion was foolhardy[?]"

I sadly must answer yes to both questions. Being raised to believe that The Watchtower was God's approved instrument of communication with mankind, and that its interpretations came from God, as a child and a teenager I trusted those in positions of power to accurately convey the Bible's message, even if it seemed contradictory as to what I personally might interpret the Bible as saying as well as to the stark reality of the situation as the 1914 generation dwindled away. Fortunately, as I grew into my twenties, I developed a greater capacity for critical thinking, and developed a willingness to become aware of my own biases and consider views with which I was not comfortable. Thus, I have corrected the mistakes of my youth. I no longer believe the many unscriptural and unfactual teachings of the Watch Tower Society. I no longer condone their cavalier attitude toward truth. I am now fully aware of the fact that the organization's leaders lie about its history in order to enhance its image and cover embarrassings errors. And I am no longer willing to support an organization that tarnishes God's name with their false prophecy, bloodguilt, and lack of love.

56

They keep pushing and pushing for the rank and file to do more and more. Dec 15 WT

by life is to short in

they are causing mental problems by pushing and pushing the ones in to do more and more and more.. the dec 15th wt on page 7 says .

"you have a document that needs a certain person's attention by the end of the day.

you mare it urgent!

Fadeout

Jesus' ministry only lasted three years, and it killed him. They want us to maintain URGENT ministry for a lifetime. It's simply not possible for most people. But of course, it's characteristic of destructive cults to set impossibly high standards, both to keep members busy (thus not thinking) and to ensure constant pressure from guilt.

443

Generation Teaching - Everyone is speechless?

by Red Piller in

jw
friends

maybe the effect of this change is bigger than realized?

in 1995, it was discussed (positively) by everybody, during the week we studied the wt.

one elder stepped down and was looked down upon.

Fadeout

djeggnog: If this is how you understand God's promise to us, knowing (as you should!) that nobody knows "that day and hour" (Matthew 24:36), then who else can you blame if you yourself were putting faith in these words of encouragement, which is what they are? These words weren't a prediction as you are making them out to be as if the faithful and discreet slave could actually countermand Jesus' clear words at Matthew 24:36.

Brother, it sounds like you are among those toying with Jesus' words, as the Watchtower warned us:

This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end.

As far as the (now retracted) promise regarding the 1914 generation being "words of encouragement," there are many other ways to encourage people that don't involve lying. Is this an honest form of encouragement and a true promise?

Manager: "Thank you for your continuing hard work; the owner promises you'll receive your $5000 paycheck at the end of the month."

(the end of the month arrives)

"Thank you for your continuing hard work. Though I misunderstood when the owner would be able to pay you, rest assured that you will be paid just as soon as he comes back from his business trip on the 14th."

(the 14th arrives)

"Thank you for your continuing hard work. Although the owner has returned, he has a lot to catch up on and won't be able to pay you immediately. We'll definitely have it ready within a week, though."

(a week passes)

"Thank you for your continuing hard work. Your paycheck isn't quite ready yet, but we do now know that it will be ready at the end of this month. So, look forward to that! What's that? No, I don't recommend taking out a loan to pay some bills. You're about to get paid, it would simply be foolish to take out a loan at this point."

(the month ends)

"Thank you for your continuing hard work. I realize I share some responsibity for you expecting your paycheck today. Unfortunately we don't have it. I have to admit I was a little excited about the prospect of getting it to you and may have made statements that caused you to expect it. Fortunately, we do know that the owner is committed to distributing paychecks by Christmas. So don't worry!"

(christmas passes)

"Thank you for your continuing hard work. When the owner said paychecks would be here by Christmas, what he really meant was the Christmas season. As you can see, Christmas lights are still up all over the neighborhood. But don't slack off now! You'll get your paycheck very soon!"

443

Generation Teaching - Everyone is speechless?

by Red Piller in

jw
friends

maybe the effect of this change is bigger than realized?

in 1995, it was discussed (positively) by everybody, during the week we studied the wt.

one elder stepped down and was looked down upon.

Fadeout

So I'll ask again, who Promised a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away ? Is there any JW on board who can answer this ? If you truly believe this religion is the "TRUTH", please answer.

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and my answer to your question is that it was Jehovah made the promise of a peaceful and secure new world.

I appreciate you taking as much time as you have to explain your beliefs. I trust you understand that your above response to the above question is not actually an answer to the question.

Nobody is disputing the fact that the Bible promises a peaceful and secure new world. Surely you realize that the key point here is the timeframe that was made an integral part of the promise by the Awake! writers. It is one thing to say "The Creator promises a secure and peaceful new world." It is quite another to say "The Creator promises a secure and peaceful new world by next Saturday." One promise is of an event at an undetermined time in the future; the other is of an event that will take place in a specific timeframe, which will definitely be proven correct or false when that timeframe has elapsed.

This particular Promise, according to the Awake!, is for that event to happen "before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." Since it is of course a Promise, the wholly appropriate question to ask is "Who made this promise regarding the 1914 generation?"

78

Are You For Or Against The Death Penalty?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i clearly am for it if it's proven without a doubt that a person murdered another in cold blood.

recently, in connecticut, a man was convicted of killing 2 young girls and their mother.

the animal raped them and almost killed the defenseless husband/father who could do nothing while these atrocities were being carried out in his own home!.

Fadeout

I have a problem with the vengeance factor which is so evident in the population at large. Because we are disgusted by the criminal's heinous acts, we respond emotionally rather than logically and end up saying things like "he needs to get a chainsaw to the balls" or "he needs to be raped in prison."

As if that will undo the damage they've caused or make our society a better, healthier one.

Someone in this thread even trotted out "Eye for an eye." Disregarding the dubious proposition that the (let's face it) downright evil God of the Hebrews came up with the correct solution for criminal punishment, obviously the intent of this philosophy is justice. Because one has killed, he should be killed in turn. But justice can never be attained. Justice is an ideal, the way perfection is an ideal. It does not and cannot actually exist (in the criminal justice system). When a maniac tortures and kills an innocent family, it is not justice for him to be killed or even to be tortured and killed. Just ask the surviving relatives. Are they "made whole" after the execution? Justice would be for their family members to be returned to life. Thus the emotional appeal of religion, which offers the justice we can never achieve-- tormenting the evildoers while restoring the innocent to life and happiness.

"I find it amusing that those that speaks against the DP will change their minds in a hurry the second that a very close loved one is murdered."

This is a common argument by death penalty supporters. While it is absolutely true that the world is full of hypocrites, it is not a valid argument technique to simply assume a future hypocritical stance on the part of your opponent. If someone is truly against the death penalty on principle, yet they demand it when the issue hits close to home, that is an emotional reaction not consistent with their reasoned stance. A stupid society, indeed, would make policy that caters to the emotional irrationality of people at their most vulnerable.

In any case, the impact of any potential sentence on society (the millions of us who are innocent) is vastly more important than the impact of the sentence on the criminal (who no longer has any rights except those extended to criminals in the Constitution). Based on the unhealthy vengeful societal attitude behind the support of the death penalty, the financial cost to society of executing a criminal (at least under the current judicial system which makes it a more expensive option than life imprisonment), and the unacceptable risk of executing innocent people, I have to oppose the death penalty on both moral and pragmatic grounds.

While there may be a small deterrent effect, I rather doubt that it is strong enough to outweigh the negatives. If it were a more obvious and bigger effect, I'd more seriously consider changing my view. Interestingly, one of the articles BTS posted showed that the time until the execution appears to be a factor in the effectivness of the deterrent. That makes logical sense, but it also reduces the time in which new evidence may come to light and a conviction may be overturned. So with a more effective deterrent comes additional risks.

51

Has there, or are there any normal pro-WT members on this forum? As in mentally stable, anybody?

by miseryloveselders in

jw
friends

first off, forgive me if i'm guilty of being judgemental.

i got my own fair share of mental problems.

it goes without saying that a bunch of us on this forum are misfits and freaks.

Fadeout

To be fair a lot of non-JWs are crazy as well. Just check one of the threads about the paranormal.

I kid, I kid. We're all crazy, just to varying degrees. I'm just grateful that I get my half hour of computer time after each electroshock treatment.