Posts by quincemyles

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

They borrowed the Devil and demons concepts from their godless neighbors.

So why are you arguing against every subsequent reference to Satan in the NT?

I'm confused what your point is.

The point is that, without God actually revealing to Jews first that there were angels that fell, no human would know about that, i think. Fallen angels existed ,first, only in the imagination of the godless neighbors. Just because the Hebrews later imbibed that incorrect imagination does not lend credence to the existence of fallen angels. For instance, Fallen Titans born out of the mating of Uranus and earth, chased from heaven and chained by Zeus to be in a dark dungeon called Tartarus awaiting Judgment in fire was greatly developed by Greek poets such as Homer in his illiad around 800 B.C. No Hebrew knew stuff like that. That Jews later soaked in some of those fables does not in anyway lend credence to the idea that fallen Titans really existed bound in chains in a dark pit. Writers of the NT existed at a time that Jews had soaked in the Satan and his angels created by and existing only in the human imagination. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 alludes to those myths. Just because NT writers alluded to myth to teach good christian lessons does not lend support to the existence of Fallen Titans with a king over them. Unless YHWH himself said revealed to humans first that there were fallen angels, no human of his own ability would know that. That humans knew that stuff before God himself told them, may mean that the concepts of Satan and fallen Titans is purely fiction.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

Smiddy.

Doesn`t the book of Job allude to a fallen Angel a spirit creature to tempt humans against God ?

What the book of Job says.

1) The accuser (Satan) walked in the land of Uz. Job 1:1,7.

2) Job was a prominent figure in the land, a wealthy sheikh. Job 1:3.

3) The accusing person attended some kind of court sessions in which matters concerning others were presented before a representative of God. Job 1:6. Exodus 18:19.

4) What befell Job was done by God himself, rather than the one who brought the accusations against Job. Job 1:11, 21; 2:5; 42:10.

What the book of Job does not say.

1) That the sons of God there were angels.

2) That the gatherings of the Sons of God before YHWH were in Heaven. The accuser was walking, roaming in the land of Uz. He would leave that land to possibly another land where the religious council was held and before whom he presented his cases against Job.

3) That the accuser is the one who caused the calamities that befell God. All the accuser did was request through God's representative that calamity falls on Job.

4) That a fallen angel was rebuked a the close of Job's tribulation. Only humans were rebuked, consolidating the idea that it was all a human against human affair before God. Job 42:7-9.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

It's very unlikely that Caiaphas, who was appointed by Valerius Gratus was a Pharisee. The Sadducess, who were pragmatists, were far more successful under Roman rule.

Will look into that. Thanks.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

There is no devil or Satan in the pre-exile OT.
He was borrowed from the Zoroastrian religion in Babylon.

I agree. No casting out of Demons either in the pre-exile OT. After interacting with Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans, then you get demons of blindness, demons of muteness, demons of epilepsy, demons of schizophrenia being cast out. They borrowed the Devil and demons concepts from their godless neighbors.

So why are you using an obscure reference in Rev to interpret the letter of James?

From the time Jesus began his ministry to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D, the devil was a human system, a human being or an idea standing in opposition to Christ's work. Any one of those would fit the devil in James. Why? James wrote to Jews who were scattered about, fleeing intense persecution. He urged them to endure. Who were the persecutors or opposers (Satans)? It was apostate Jews and Romans. I would point to the devil in James 4 as being a human, human system or sin on the basis of history without alluding to revelation 2:9,10; 3:9,10. Because the OT does not present the devil as a fallen spirit, he would not be the first to come to mind when i read devil in James. It is evident that first century Christians believed in a fallen archenemy which is why we find lots of Devils and demons in the NT. That belief was borrowed from neighbors and was not based on facts.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

I meant apostate Jews/Judaizers. Rev 2:9,10; 3:9,10.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

Are you sure you understand the differences between the Sadducees and Pharisees including but not limited to which of the two groups got along with the Herodians? And which group did not?

The emphasis for the OP is that the tempter of Christ was a man, a ruler well versed in the Old Testament. The exact religious affiliation of that ruler is a matter I am open to investigate further. The ruler had to be either a sadducee or a pharisee.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

Herodian Kings could offer the kingdoms of the world? (You say that means kingdoms of Israel) Those Herodian kings which were subject to the Roman empire?

Yes. High priests were appointed the Herodian kings subject to the Roman empire. The kingdoms of the world of the Jews was the subject of interest, the world to which Jesus came and he was rejected.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

cofty. As you know, the bible is a book within which are many books and accounts. We should be careful not to transpose thoughts from different parts of the bible. The temptation of Jesus Christ is a separate account, separate from the account of Jesus rebuking Peter to “get behind me Satan.” If we seek to understand the identity of the Satan who tempted Jesus, we should look at events related to the baptism, fasting and temptation. The mention of the Devil or Satan elsewhere in the bible may not be related to the Satan in the temptation. If we associate passages arbitrarily, then Peter would be the one who tempted Jesus because he was called Satan by Jesus. Satan mentioned in Revelation may have nothing to do with the Satan who tempted Jesus. Satan is a common noun not proper noun which is why we should not think the reference is to the same individual as the bible clearly has on numerous occasions shown that there are many satans. Satan was the righteous angel who made the donkey talk. Word satan was used in his case. Satan was sin that ruled as king through death, Satan was Peter, satan was a congregation of opposing Jews. Satan was the roman empire and so on.

Matt 25:41- "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. “NIV

The ones being thrown into that fire are human beings. Devil means slanderer, humans were and are slanderers. Angel means messenger, humans are messengers of slander at times. Those who are messengers of slander end up in the lake of fire. Devil or angel are not proper nouns so that we should restrict the terms to just some conceptual archenemy with his minions. The terms very well apply to humans. Those humans end up being thrown into the lake of fire prepared for them.

John 13:2 – The devil meant here is sin. The case of Ananias recorded at Acts 5:1-5 shows sin filling the heart and called Satan.

Heb 2:14 when read in line with Romans 8:3 indicates that the one with the means to cause death is Sin, thus sin is the devil or accuser before God.

Jas 4:7 – The Jews were to be opposed.

1Pet 5:8 –The Jews were the adversary in conjunction with the Romans.

Jude 1:9 is a quote from Zechariah 3:1-3. The passage does not say that the resister (Satan) there was a spirit. Moreover this was a vision with prophetic significance. Whether the vision in its entirety represented exact literal realities is a matter that can be explored.

Rev 2:10 should be read together with Revelation 2:9 which makes it apparent that Satan (resister) there was the synagogue of the Jews who persecuted first century Christians. No fallen angel involved.

Rev 12:9-12 – The beast with seven heads represented the Roman Empire. It is the dragon that looked old and was called Satan the devil. The seven heads represented human kings, roman emperors. The angels that the tail dragged were humans. When you compare revelation 12:4-12 with Daniel 8:9-12;12:1, you may notice that they are both about the Roman empire persecuting the first century Christians, thus fighting with Michael the archangel who was ruler over Israel in the last days of the Jewish world. Satan there was the Roman Empire.

Rev 20:2, 7-10. The Roman Empire is the Satan meant in these verses.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

6 minutes

"The Pharisees fell from power during the time of Salome Alexandra"

Matthew 2:1-5 shows that Chief/high priests were influential and answerable to Herodian kings who appointed them.. At the death of Christ Caiaphas the high priest who was ruler over Israel was highly influence. Matt 26:60-65. In the time of Christ, the Chief priests were rulers in Israel.

88

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

by quincemyles in

after jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.

the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.

jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.

quincemyles

Jesus called Peter Satan. He called Judas Devil. Peter and Judas were Satan and Devil, human beings. The same Jesus would have called a pharisee Satan or Devil. It is clear Jesus called humans Satan/Devil. Matthew 4 does not mention that the Satan there was a spirit. From where do people get that conclusion that the tempter was a spirit? The text simply does not say. The tempter retired until another convenient time. It was pharisees who showed up at different convenient times testing Jesus. Gospels are replete with accounts of humans testing Jesus. A human said, "if you are the son of God," come off that cross. It may as well have been a human saying "if you are the son of God" turn these stones into bread. They asked him to give them manner from heaven as a sign, some slapped him and wanted him to miraculously identify the slapper. It was humans who doubted Jesus who repeatedly tempted him, asking for signs. Those who believed him however were saved. The temptation account does not say the Satan there was a spirit. Satan was Peter at one time, a human. Devil (diabolos) was Judas at another time. There is no reason why a human devil or satan would not perfectly fit the tempter in Matthew 4 and Luke 4.