It's very unlikely that Caiaphas, who was appointed by Valerius Gratus was a Pharisee. The Sadducess, who were pragmatists, were far more successful under Roman rule.
Will look into that. Thanks.
quincemyles
JoinedPosts by quincemyles
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
There is no devil or Satan in the pre-exile OT.
He was borrowed from the Zoroastrian religion in Babylon.
I agree. No casting out of Demons either in the pre-exile OT. After interacting with Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans, then you get demons of blindness, demons of muteness, demons of epilepsy, demons of schizophrenia being cast out. They borrowed the Devil and demons concepts from their godless neighbors.
So why are you using an obscure reference in Rev to interpret the letter of James?
From the time Jesus began his ministry to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D, the devil was a human system, a human being or an idea standing in opposition to Christ's work. Any one of those would fit the devil in James. Why? James wrote to Jews who were scattered about, fleeing intense persecution. He urged them to endure. Who were the persecutors or opposers (Satans)? It was apostate Jews and Romans. I would point to the devil in James 4 as being a human, human system or sin on the basis of history without alluding to revelation 2:9,10; 3:9,10. Because the OT does not present the devil as a fallen spirit, he would not be the first to come to mind when i read devil in James. It is evident that first century Christians believed in a fallen archenemy which is why we find lots of Devils and demons in the NT. That belief was borrowed from neighbors and was not based on facts.
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
I meant apostate Jews/Judaizers. Rev 2:9,10; 3:9,10.
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
Are you sure you understand the differences between the Sadducees and Pharisees including but not limited to which of the two groups got along with the Herodians? And which group did not?
The emphasis for the OP is that the tempter of Christ was a man, a ruler well versed in the Old Testament. The exact religious affiliation of that ruler is a matter I am open to investigate further. The ruler had to be either a sadducee or a pharisee.
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
Herodian Kings could offer the kingdoms of the world? (You say that means kingdoms of Israel) Those Herodian kings which were subject to the Roman empire?
Yes. High priests were appointed the Herodian kings subject to the Roman empire. The kingdoms of the world of the Jews was the subject of interest, the world to which Jesus came and he was rejected.
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
cofty. As you know, the bible is a book within which are many books and accounts. We should be careful not to transpose thoughts from different parts of the bible. The temptation of Jesus Christ is a separate account, separate from the account of Jesus rebuking Peter to “get behind me Satan.” If we seek to understand the identity of the Satan who tempted Jesus, we should look at events related to the baptism, fasting and temptation. The mention of the Devil or Satan elsewhere in the bible may not be related to the Satan in the temptation. If we associate passages arbitrarily, then Peter would be the one who tempted Jesus because he was called Satan by Jesus. Satan mentioned in Revelation may have nothing to do with the Satan who tempted Jesus. Satan is a common noun not proper noun which is why we should not think the reference is to the same individual as the bible clearly has on numerous occasions shown that there are many satans. Satan was the righteous angel who made the donkey talk. Word satan was used in his case. Satan was sin that ruled as king through death, Satan was Peter, satan was a congregation of opposing Jews. Satan was the roman empire and so on.
Matt 25:41- "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. “NIV
The ones being thrown into that fire are human beings. Devil means slanderer, humans were and are slanderers. Angel means messenger, humans are messengers of slander at times. Those who are messengers of slander end up in the lake of fire. Devil or angel are not proper nouns so that we should restrict the terms to just some conceptual archenemy with his minions. The terms very well apply to humans. Those humans end up being thrown into the lake of fire prepared for them.
John 13:2 – The devil meant here is sin. The case of Ananias recorded at Acts 5:1-5 shows sin filling the heart and called Satan.
Heb 2:14 when read in line with Romans 8:3 indicates that the one with the means to cause death is Sin, thus sin is the devil or accuser before God.
Jas 4:7 – The Jews were to be opposed.
1Pet 5:8 –The Jews were the adversary in conjunction with the Romans.
Jude 1:9 is a quote from Zechariah 3:1-3. The passage does not say that the resister (Satan) there was a spirit. Moreover this was a vision with prophetic significance. Whether the vision in its entirety represented exact literal realities is a matter that can be explored.
Rev 2:10 should be read together with Revelation 2:9 which makes it apparent that Satan (resister) there was the synagogue of the Jews who persecuted first century Christians. No fallen angel involved.
Rev 12:9-12 – The beast with seven heads represented the Roman Empire. It is the dragon that looked old and was called Satan the devil. The seven heads represented human kings, roman emperors. The angels that the tail dragged were humans. When you compare revelation 12:4-12 with Daniel 8:9-12;12:1, you may notice that they are both about the Roman empire persecuting the first century Christians, thus fighting with Michael the archangel who was ruler over Israel in the last days of the Jewish world. Satan there was the Roman Empire.
Rev 20:2, 7-10. The Roman Empire is the Satan meant in these verses.
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
6 minutes
- "The Pharisees fell from power during the time of Salome Alexandra"
Matthew 2:1-5 shows that Chief/high priests were influential and answerable to Herodian kings who appointed them.. At the death of Christ Caiaphas the high priest who was ruler over Israel was highly influence. Matt 26:60-65. In the time of Christ, the Chief priests were rulers in Israel.
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
Jesus called Peter Satan. He called Judas Devil. Peter and Judas were Satan and Devil, human beings. The same Jesus would have called a pharisee Satan or Devil. It is clear Jesus called humans Satan/Devil. Matthew 4 does not mention that the Satan there was a spirit. From where do people get that conclusion that the tempter was a spirit? The text simply does not say. The tempter retired until another convenient time. It was pharisees who showed up at different convenient times testing Jesus. Gospels are replete with accounts of humans testing Jesus. A human said, "if you are the son of God," come off that cross. It may as well have been a human saying "if you are the son of God" turn these stones into bread. They asked him to give them manner from heaven as a sign, some slapped him and wanted him to miraculously identify the slapper. It was humans who doubted Jesus who repeatedly tempted him, asking for signs. Those who believed him however were saved. The temptation account does not say the Satan there was a spirit. Satan was Peter at one time, a human. Devil (diabolos) was Judas at another time. There is no reason why a human devil or satan would not perfectly fit the tempter in Matthew 4 and Luke 4.
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
Neat blue dog and Simon, "all kingdoms of the world" refers to the kingdoms of Israel, the world of the Jews. High priests were appointed by Herodian kings to rule over Israel. In Luke 4:6, the pharisaic ruler alluded to that acquisition of authority over Israel from a Herodian king. Cofty, That Satan the Devil who tested Jesus Christ with scripture quotes was a human being who wanted to see if Jesus really had what it takes to be a promised Messiah. When Jesus was getting baptized, there were pharisees watching. Matthew 3:7,13. They heard John declare him to be the "lamb that takes away the sin of the world" and a voice from heaven declared him "God's son." John 1:29-34.Then he went fasting for 40 days and 40 nights. Word went around among the Pharisees. Consequently, a Hebrew scholar and ruler went to vet Christ to really see whether what John and the voice from heaven declared was true. If you are the son of God, do so and so the testing went. The tester was not sure if Jesus was really the son of God, so he wanted to see him use the messianic power to prove his son-ship. The tester was someone who respected the bible which is why he respected Jesus' responses with scripture quotes. For suggesting to test God, Jesus called the Hebrew scholar Satan in the same way that he called Peter Satan for suggesting that Christ avoids suffering in Jerusalem at the hands of the elders. Mark 8:31-33, Matt 4:7, Deut. 6:16, 1 Cor. 10:9,
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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quincemyles
cofty, would you be kind as to provide scriptures that say the tester was a spirit rather than a man?