Posts by EverAStudent

52

The Title Jesus Gave Himself: Lord of the Sabbath

by EverAStudent in

jw
friends

i have been reading and investigating matthew 12:1-8. jesus is accused of breaking the law of the seventh day of rest, the sabbath.

he defends himself and then caps the discussion by declaring himself to be "the lord of the sabbath.

" since only yhwh was ever known as the lord of the sabbath (the one who created, owned, and received worship on the sabbath) i can find no other valid meaning for the title jesus gave to himself, except that he is calling himself god.. what meaning does the wts put on this title, since i know they are not willing to allow jesus to call himself yhwh?.

EverAStudent

Leolaia wrote: "As far as Mark is concerned, there is no implication here that lordship over the Sabbath entails that the Sabbath legislation can be ignored. With the preceding verse in context (v. 27), the sense instead is that the Sabbath was instituted to serve, bless, help mankind (allowing man to share in the same kind of rest that God enjoyed), as a servant would help and bless his master, not to burden or dominate over man in times of need as if the Sabbath were the master (kurios ) over man. The allusion to Genesis 1-2 in the passage connects the lordship of mankind over the sabbath to man's creation, when mankind was given dominion (in the LXX utilizing the intensive verbal form of kurios ) over the earth and everything in it. Man's dominion over the animals in the Genesis creation narrative similarly does not imply that man is free to do whatever he pleases to them and ignore the laws on killing, blood, and the eating of unclean animals."

The difficulty with invoking the Genesis 1-2 statement of dominion over the land as an analogy of Scripture for the Mark 12:1-10 passage's use of the phrase "Lord of the Sabbath" is that the concepts are not equivalent. Humanity was to have dominion, that is, what man decided to do with the planet is what would be done, though God put some limits on man's excesses (e.g. the year of Jubilee). In that way humanity had dominion and freedom to do almost anything.

This is untrue with the Sabbath. With the Sabbath, everything was restricted by God, and only a very few things were allowable (saving life, acts of mercy). Genesis 1-2 is not a good analogy of Scripture for Mark 12 for it demonstrates virtually the opposite principle. Once again, God demonstrates He is Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath is His to have dominion over and not man.

304

is jesus a god?

by javig in

hi...i have come across the jw text that says that "the word was a god" john 1:1...who is that "god"?

another god?

is him jesus?...

EverAStudent

To IwateBuddy: That is an interesting apologetic. As you say, most have not attempted to learn Greek.

Sadly, a great intellect and a surpassing background in ancient languages do not automatically result in a person acknowledging Christ as God and Lord. In fact, the more education one accrues can actually result in a supreme confidence and arrogance against Jesus if one rejects the claim of Christ to be God.

All that said, I think your approach is excellent and well worth trying. Utlimately, it resides with God's Holy Spirit to permit a person to realize that Jesus is YHWH.

81

Are there ANY Bible prophecies that indisputably came true?

by nicolaou in

.

i mean a prophecy made before the event, with specific detail that can be verified in history books.

nothing vague like 'reports of wars'.. .

EverAStudent

Hi Lilly, apparently we are in hot agreement. Sorry that I misunderstood your post.

52

The Title Jesus Gave Himself: Lord of the Sabbath

by EverAStudent in

jw
friends

i have been reading and investigating matthew 12:1-8. jesus is accused of breaking the law of the seventh day of rest, the sabbath.

he defends himself and then caps the discussion by declaring himself to be "the lord of the sabbath.

" since only yhwh was ever known as the lord of the sabbath (the one who created, owned, and received worship on the sabbath) i can find no other valid meaning for the title jesus gave to himself, except that he is calling himself god.. what meaning does the wts put on this title, since i know they are not willing to allow jesus to call himself yhwh?.

EverAStudent

Dear villabolo: In so much as my belief system differs from Leolaia's (I believe the Bible is an accurate inspired revelation from God to man via prophets and demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH, while Leolaia does not believe these things), you will get patently different answers to your question.

The Law, given by God to Moses for the nation of Israel, was obligatory. It was binding on all men. Breaking the Law often had the death penalty associated with it. Elements of the Law, like the Sabbath being a day of rest and worship, was meant to benefit man (thus the expression that the Sabbath was made "for men"). Its benefits were that it allowed man to rest and to contemplate on the holiness of God.

So what if you intentionally broke the Law, even the parts that were to be of benefit? There was usually a penalty spelled out in the Law. No Jew was above the Law. Not even Jesus.

Sometimes a life would be in danger on the Sabbath, and a person was permitted to break the Law of Sabbath rest to save a life or provide medical assistance (or even healing) to another person. No penalty was given for these acts of mercy.

Picking up fire wood was not an act of mercy or an act designed to save a life that was immediately in danger. Therefore, the penalty was imposed because it demonstrated the Law-breaker was intentionally disobeying God.

Notice that in no way were men "rulers over" the Sabbath or the Sabbath Law, for all had to obey it. Only Jesus, who also had to obey the same Sabbath Law, could truly be said to be ruler over the Sabbath since, as YHWH, He invented it, decreed it, and rightly understood it. He was the Law's creator, thus its Lord, but as a human, He was still subject to obey it.

The Pharisees were wrong in their application of the Law of Sabbath. They accused Jesus and the disciples of harvesting on the Sabbath, yet, the actual Law of the Sabbath did not acknowledge picking grains of wheat and eating them raw for one's lunch as "work" in any meaningful fashion. If the disciples had been working on the Sabbath, then the Pharisees would have been correct in their accusation. But eating raw wheat and performing healing were not the kind of "work" that the Law of Moses prohibited.

52

The Title Jesus Gave Himself: Lord of the Sabbath

by EverAStudent in

jw
friends

i have been reading and investigating matthew 12:1-8. jesus is accused of breaking the law of the seventh day of rest, the sabbath.

he defends himself and then caps the discussion by declaring himself to be "the lord of the sabbath.

" since only yhwh was ever known as the lord of the sabbath (the one who created, owned, and received worship on the sabbath) i can find no other valid meaning for the title jesus gave to himself, except that he is calling himself god.. what meaning does the wts put on this title, since i know they are not willing to allow jesus to call himself yhwh?.

EverAStudent

Design: Thank you for the confirmation. Somehow the WTS thinks Jesus was telling the Jewish authorities He had the authority to do what He did on the basis of a future claim to someday becoming the Lord of the Sabbath. Utterly illogical, but I understand what they are saying.

Lilly: That was an interesting quote and one that I found no real problem with after a quick read-through.

Leolaia: Thank you for reiterating your position. I am not swayed toward it, however. While it is true that the OT uses the phrase to refer to generic humanity, it was not used as a personal name in the OT. The important consideration is that Jesus used it as His personal name 80 times, and never to refer to general humanity through it. Even when Jesus used it to refer to His apocalyptic coming, it was to Himself in the apocalypse to which he applied the name, Son of Man. As you point out yourself, though the English language does not perform this way when Greek speakers wanted to refer to a group of people it was more natural to refer to them in the plural "sons of men," and when referring to a single individual to use the singular, "Son of Man."

Consider the following apocalyptic statements of Jesus. Here Jesus refers to Himself as both the Son of Man and the one who is the apocalyptic judge of the world. Further note that the Son of Man is also the Son of the Father, making it certain that Jesus is the Son of Man by title.

And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me , he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me . ... "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
(Mark 8:34, 38)

Since the Son of Man (singular) is always and only the name/title of Jesus in the gospels, it was to Himself that Jesus was referring when He said, "The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath."

Blessings to all.

81

Are there ANY Bible prophecies that indisputably came true?

by nicolaou in

.

i mean a prophecy made before the event, with specific detail that can be verified in history books.

nothing vague like 'reports of wars'.. .

EverAStudent

Hi Lilly. Thanks for stating your opinion. In our modern-day Western mindset, no, we do not read the things written by David and say, "Hey, that's a prophecy!" But we are not Jews from the 1st century. Jesus did read those same passages and think they were prophecy. Look what Jesus says about the Psalms:

Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. "You are witnesses of these things. (Luke 24:44-48)

And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken ! "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures . (Luke 24:25-27 )

It is dangerous to approach Scripture and say, "Well, since I would not write it that way, then it must be wrong." As you stated, Lilly, God inspired David to write things that never applied to him but only applied to the Messiah, and Jesus taught us these were prophecies about Him.

And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? "David himself said in the Holy Spirit , 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET."' "David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him. (Mark 12:35-37)

And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said , 'WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE, AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS? 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' (Acts 4:24-26)

52

The Title Jesus Gave Himself: Lord of the Sabbath

by EverAStudent in

jw
friends

i have been reading and investigating matthew 12:1-8. jesus is accused of breaking the law of the seventh day of rest, the sabbath.

he defends himself and then caps the discussion by declaring himself to be "the lord of the sabbath.

" since only yhwh was ever known as the lord of the sabbath (the one who created, owned, and received worship on the sabbath) i can find no other valid meaning for the title jesus gave to himself, except that he is calling himself god.. what meaning does the wts put on this title, since i know they are not willing to allow jesus to call himself yhwh?.

EverAStudent

PSacramento, remember, with that theory you are asking us to believe that Jesus, who named Himself "Son of Man" some eighty times in the NT, is here, for the only time ever, not referring to Himself but to the crowd and calling the crowd both "Son of Man" and "Lord of the Sabbath." That feels more like a WTS handling of biblical literature than a straight-up reading of it, knowing that the WTS is always desperately looking for creative ways to deny that Jesus ever equated Himself with YHWH.

Leaving the realm of speculation, Jesus often referred to the humanity of His followers by referring to them with words like "people" (anthropos), "crowd" (ochlos), and "people" of this nation (laos). Yet, never did He call them "Son of Man."

In the only instance where Jesus called the generic throng of humanity by a similar name to the one He gave Himself, He changed it from singular "Son of Man" to plural, "sons of men," making it quite obvious He was NOT speaking of Himself:

"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;"
(Mark 3:28)

In the story of the Sabbath if it was Jesus' intent to tell the assembled crowd that they were the lords of the Sabbath, it would have been in character for Jesus to have said "you sons of men are lords of the Sabbath." Plural. Of course, that is not at all what He said, nor, evidently, what He meant.

Therefore, while the theory that Jesus might have been saying that the crowd was "the Lord of the Sabbath" is a fun theory to toy with, it requires that one close one's eyes to the fact that Jesus never gave away the name "Son of Man" to any other. It is a hollow theory that does not stand up to the weight of what the rest of Scriptures say and to the known reality that Jesus called Himself by the name "Son of Man" some eighty times.

52

The Title Jesus Gave Himself: Lord of the Sabbath

by EverAStudent in

jw
friends

i have been reading and investigating matthew 12:1-8. jesus is accused of breaking the law of the seventh day of rest, the sabbath.

he defends himself and then caps the discussion by declaring himself to be "the lord of the sabbath.

" since only yhwh was ever known as the lord of the sabbath (the one who created, owned, and received worship on the sabbath) i can find no other valid meaning for the title jesus gave to himself, except that he is calling himself god.. what meaning does the wts put on this title, since i know they are not willing to allow jesus to call himself yhwh?.

EverAStudent

Greetings Leolaia.

That is an interesting alternative approach to the passage. I dare say, I have not encountered it before.

I struggle with your comment that Jesus used "Son of Man" to refer to humanity in general instead of to Himself specifically. Of the approximately 80 times Jesus uses the term in the gospels, I have found that each one is a direct reference to Himself. Such self-references include when He refers to Himself as judge over the earth, or coming in His glory, or having authority to forgive sins.

To be a credible alternative interpretation (i.e. that all humanity is the real lord of the Sabbath) it would be necessary to show that Jesus at least sometimes used "Son of Man" to refer to humanity in general instead of to Himself. I am unaware of even a single such usage by Jesus, much less an habitual one.

Further, you state that Jesus borrowed the expression "Son of Man" from the extra-biblical text 1 Enoch. While I understand your enthusiasm for ancient literature, the assertion betrays a bias that an historical Jew, such as Jesus, could not have shared. If Jesus was an historical man, and if He was the "Son of God" as He claimed, then He would have more likely borrowed the "Son of Man" reference from Daniel 7:13-14. In fact, Jesus quoted Daniel 7 during His trial in reply to the question, "Tell us if you are the Christ" to demonstrate that He did consider Himself to be the "Son of Man" coming in the clouds to reign over an everlasting dominion (read Matthew 26:63-65). As a result of Jesus' quotation from Daniel 7 the leaders were able to decree that Jesus had blasphemed.

Finally, in considering the context of the discussion about the lawful actions on the Sabbath, Jesus mentioned that "something greater than the temple" was present. Just as He had done with claiming that His glory was greater than that of Abraham's (read John 8) He now claimed to be greater than the temple. It seems out of place to think that Jesus would first claim to be greater than the temple and then suddenly tell the crowd that all of them were the true lords of the Sabbath. It is more likely that Jesus was citing His credentials and authority (as Lord of the Sabbath) to demonstrate that His interpretation of the Law of the Sabbath was superior to that of the Pharisees.

In all three synoptic gospel accounts of the story, after Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath and subsequently heals people in defiance of the Jewish officials, the officials are recorded as deciding to find a way to have Him killed. Did they really desire to kill Him because He could heal people, or did they want to kill Him because He claimed equality with YHWH when He called Himself Lord of the Sabbath, a claim to higher authority than the officials possessed?

Thanks for the discussion, Leolaia.

12

Male and Female temple prostitutes

by ssn587 in

the following verses make me wonder just how prevalent prostituion at the "temple" was in ancient times.. the verse in deut.

23: 17 about becoming temple prostitutes didn't they israelites have a tabernacle until solomon built the temple during his reign?.

deuteronomy 23:17 none of the daughters of israel may become temple prostitutes neither may anyone of the sons of israel become a temple prostitute.

EverAStudent

I am sorry to say that the practice was wide-spread pre-Israel, in Israel before the kings, in the Northern Kingdom before their destruction, and even in the Southern Kingdom at times. This is evident from such passages of Scripture as God rebuking the nation of Israel for serving Baal via lewd acts under every tree, Solomon building temples for the fertility cults of his wives, etc. The sons of one of the Jewish prophets actually set up fertility prostitution in the Tabernacle.

In NT times the cult of Artemus in Ephesus was widely believed to be a fertility cult. In Rome many of the temples were fertility cults. Yes, it was quite rampant. Fertility cults were tightly embedded in the cultures of the day.

Enter Christianity: pagan fertility cults began to become frowned upon and faded away. Christians see this as a positive historical event, unbelievers see this as Christians poluting the cultures of sovereign nations.

10

Predestination and the 144K

by cameo-d in

romans 8:29. for whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.. .

so according to this, only certain people are chosen for a predestination.. how are their images conformed?

have they been genetically manipulated?

EverAStudent

Not sure if you are asking only for the WTS perspective, or opinions in general.

From the evangelical Christian perspective: all those who "get saved" are those who have been "predestined" to salvation. That is the only thing that the phrase means to an evangelical Christian. Predestination is the same as "elected" or "pre-chosen." In other words, God planned out how to save people and which people to save before He created Adam and Eve (read Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 13:8).

In general all people are called to repent and get saved. Jesus went throughout Israel calling on everyone to repent (read Mark 1:14-15). Only some people will respond, and this is also termed being "called" (see 2 Thessalonians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:2-9, Romans 11:29, Jude 1:1, 1 Peter 3:9, 2 Peter 1:3, Hebrews 9:15, 2 Timothy 1:9, 1 Timothy 6:12, Ephesians 4:1-4, 1 Corinthians 7:22). Those who respond by getting saved are those who were predestined (pre-chosen) by God.

Those who are called to salvation are conformed to the image of Christ, that is, we are to act like He acted. We are to be holy and serve God (Philippians 1:6).

It is important to remember that we serve God not to gain favor or to try to merit salvation or to win Him over. We already have the guarantee of salvation once we believe in Him for salvation (Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22). We serve God solely because we are thankful / grateful for being guaranteed salvation:

Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:28-29)