Posts by EverAStudent

79

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

EverAStudent

joelingeorgia wrote: "nothing exists except the natural universe."

OK, let's assume that is true. Nature provides numerous examples that all natural things that exist had a definative beginning. Even the present natural universe is said to have been a ball of particles the size of a basketball when it began with a big bang. Yet, those natural particles must also have had a beginning.

Where did the particles (or the energy) come from? If the particles (or energy) always existed and always will exist, then they are eternal, and self-existant, that is, unnatural or supernatural, for there is nothing else like them in the nature that we can see and experience. Our experience indicates that energy dissipates from useful heat/work to absolute motionless cold. Particles/energy does not go on eternally.

Whether you believe in a supernatural self-existant God, or in a supernatural self-existant universe of particles (or energy), to say "nothing exists except the natural universe" really does not answer any genuine question.

The eternal self-existant does exist beyond our ability to see or experience. That is the very definition of supernatural.

79

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

EverAStudent

notverylikely wrote: “So using this method, you haven't provided any proof that hell exists. Cool.”

EveryAStudent previously posted:

“Faith, by definition, is not based on ‘proof’ (because then it would not be ‘faith’ would it?) but it is based on evidences.

“There is evidence, not proof, that Jesus is the Messiah and the Creator. There is evidence, not proof, that Jesus will deconstruct this present cursed universe and will create a new eternal one in which He, the Father, and all bellievers will live together forever (Revelation 20-22).

“Similarly, there is evidence, not proof, that Hell is the ongoing eternal abode of unbelievers. Nothing there ceases to exist, not even its worms die, but neither do they live in any positive sense. That hapless eternal existence is called the second death for a reason.

“Is it unfair that unbelievers should spend an eternity existing in Hell? Since unbelievers hate the holy God, they would find eternity with Him intolerable. Although they will find Hell terrible, it will be more acceptable to them than spending eternity with a God whom they hate. So, is giving unbelievers a more tolerable existence really unfair, or, is it merciful?”

--- end of quote by EverAStudent

I believe that it was the point of my post to state that Hell is not provable. Nonetheless, there is an abundance of biblical evidence for it.

79

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

EverAStudent

notverylikely wrote: " In verse 13 Eli was watching something, in verse 15 he was blind. So it reminds of a lot of the Bible, contradictory and self inconsistent."

It is easy to find "contradictions" and "errors" when you get to pick and choose the definitions you want to apply to other people's words. Like almost every word in any language, the word "watch" in 1 Samuel 4:13 has a range of meanings, and not just one. It can mean, "to act as a watchman, to anticipate, to wait for, to peer into the distance," and so on.

Yes, a blind man can wait for, anticipate, and even use his hearing to act as a watchman. However, if one insists that they have the authority to dictate that the Hebrew language word tsaphah can only mean "to peer into the distance" then they might have a point to make. However, since more scholarly authorities on the Hebrew language have written that the word tsaphah has an entire range of common meanings, I am forced to reject notverylikely as such an authority. In this instance, it is not the Bible which is mistaken or contradictory. Eli, though blind, was on watch for, anticipating, and waiting for the arrival of the ark.

79

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

EverAStudent

This is becoming a silly discussion, so this will be my last post on the meaning of evidence.

quote: "both definitions you provided suggest the opposite using words like 'proof' and 'fact'. What evidence do you have? Evidence is testable. Evidence is NOT hearsay."

Look more closely at the dictionary definitions. The phrases used also include statements like "tend" and "signal." In other words, evidence leans (tends) toward a given conclusion, it signals a given conclusion, but can also signal multiple conclusions. Signals can be false, and so are not necessarily proof. So, evidence is not "proof" until the evidence is singularly conclusive to the mind of an individual.

Imagine the chaos in the world if every individual piece of evidence were immediately construed as an absolute proof of a suggested fact or conclusion. Every mistaken observation, every coincidence, every old wives' tale would be taken as fact. No, it remains clear that a grouping of pieces of evidence is generally needed to establish a fact, and a grouping of facts is needed to draw a conclusion. Even then, the conclusion may be rejected if the groupings of evidence are debateable and thus is not seen as provable.

Hearsay, while not good evidence, is often used as such. Hearsay IS the core of what we call the grapevine. Some studies have shown grapevines in Fortune 500 companies to be about 75% accurate. The fact that people use grapevines and take action based on what they hear from grapevines demonstrates they accept the information as evidence and draw conclusions from the evidence (thus showing they see the accumulated evidence as proof).

hear·say: second-hand information: information that is heard from other people

Information, including second hand information, can be and is often, evidence. Information, like evidence, is rarely accepted as proof.

Blessings to you.

79

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

EverAStudent

Forum crashed during my last post, so it came up blank. Sorry.

-----

Evidence : 1. sign or proof: something that gives a sign or proof of the existence or truth of something, or that helps somebody to come to a particular conclusion
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

proof [proof]
n (plural proofs)
1. conclusive evidence : evidence or an argument that serves to establish a fact or the truth of something

Evidence is not the equivalent of proof. It is an indicator that leads toward a conclusion. Only when a piece of evidence, or an accumulation of evidence is unassailable, and therefore, conclusive, can it be seen as proof. But proof is in the eye of the decision-maker, the one who comes to a conclusion.

Evidence is rarely conclusive. A fingerprint on a door may tend to implicate a person as a robber, but the evidence is not conclusive. The fingerprint may be from the homeowner, the child of the house, the visiting neighbor, the police, a repairman, etc. Other evidence is needed to draw a conclusion.

Evidence of Hell in the Bible is just that. Evidence. It can become conclusive, and therefore proof for some individuals, but it is still just evidence until it is believed.

Personally, I believe the evidence in the Bible is overwhelming, and therefore proves there is a Hell, an eternal abode of the unbeliever who has rejected the authority of God.

79

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

EverAStudent

88

It's official--I'm out.

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

"sd-7 is no longer one of jehovah's witnesses.".

i always imagined this day would come.

i'm not sure exactly how i knew.

EverAStudent

Congratulations SD-7. Though I was never JW, I did leave a different cult. Not easy to do, but worth the emotional investment.

Whatever you end up discarding from your life will need to be replaced eventually. Nature abhors a vacuum. You may think you have discarded religion, but you have only eliminated the JWs, a false religion. This is only one more step in your spiritual journey. When you are ready, I'd suggest you obtain a copy of an English Bible that was translated with more integrity than the NWT (try the New American Standard Bible -- NASB -- it is a good one) and read the book of John as a way of reconnecting with spirituality.

Blessings.

79

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

EverAStudent

Faith, by definition, is not based on "proof" (because then it would not be "faith" would it?) but it is based on evidences.

There is evidence, not proof, that Jesus is the Messiah and the Creator. There is evidence, not proof, that Jesus will deconstruct this present cursed universe and will create a new eternal one in which He, the Father, and all bellievers will live together forever (Revelation 20-22).

Similarly, there is evidence, not proof, that Hell is the ongoing eternal abode of unbelievers. Nothing there ceases to exist, not even its worms die, but neither do they live in any positive sense. That hapless eternal existence is called the second death for a reason.

Is it unfair that unbelievers should spend an eternity existing in Hell? Since unbelievers hate the holy God, they would find eternity with Him intolerable. Although they will find Hell terrible, it will be more acceptable to them than spending eternity with a God whom they hate. So, is giving unbelievers a more tolerable existence really unfair, or, is it merciful?

79

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

EverAStudent

Faith, by definition, is not based on "proof" (because then it would not be "faith" would it?) but it is based on evidences.

There is evidence, not proof, that Jesus is the Messiah and the Creator. There is evidence, not proof, that Jesus will deconstruct this present cursed universe and will create a new eternal one in which He, the Father, and all bellievers will live together forever (Revelation 20-22).

Similarly, there is evidence, not proof, that Hell is the ongoing eternal abode of unbelievers. Nothing there ceases to exist, not even its worms die, but neither do they live in any positive sense. That hapless eternal existence is called the second death for a reason.

Is it unfair that unbelievers should spend an eternity existing in Hell? Since unbelievers hate the holy God, they would find eternity with Him intolerable. Although they will find Hell terrible, it will be more acceptable to them than spending eternity with a God whom they hate. So, is giving unbelievers a more tolerable existence really unfair, or, is it merciful?

55

The reality of Satan worship

by Weeping in

jw
friends

a fascinating video that adresses the reality of satanism.

for those who doubt what i've said about my experiences with satanic cults.. .

this was done by one of the most repected investigative journalists working today.

EverAStudent

First, the picture of the basement cat-in-a-box was great!!!! Too bad it cannot smile, it would make a fantastic Chesire Cat!

Second, yes, Satan is a real being, but he is not God, nor is he the king of the planet (he is a prince, an underling, remember?). When he is resisted, he flees. Weeping, as I pointed out in the other thread, your superstitions have become a religious reality for you, but they are not biblical truths. Weeping, did you read the article I linked to for you ( http://thefaithfulword.org/curses.html )?

Blessings.