My heart goes out to you, too, TMS. How horrible to witness all this!
Ginny
GinnyTosken
JoinedPosts by GinnyTosken
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Pedophiles
by TMS innot having access to a scanner, i will describe the black and white photograph of two ragamuffins, my sister and i. she appears about three, which would have made me about five.
she is wearing a short dress with faded prints, while i have on a corduroy jumpsuit.
her little face is squinting up at the camera, while i glance down and to the side.
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Hi there Island Woman
by Julie ingreetings island woman,.
i see you had some words for me at the time i took a short sabbatical from this board.
thought i'd address a few of your thoughts.. :ignorance comes in many forms.
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GinnyTosken
Julie,
Well yeah, considering you were no doubt sending tear-jerking e-mails to your one last ray of hope, yeah, real objective input from your lifegaurd there Amazing, sorry but the jig is up on that one dude. I have had to put her in the same "objective" category as your ex-wife and your daughter.
Oh, the assumptions!You can believe whatever you want, Julie. There were no "tear-jerking" e-mails from Amazing.
What is the point of all this, anyway? Let's suppose that Amazing is the most arrogant, egotistical, condescending person to ever walk the face of the earth. Does his character affect the validity of the information and arguments he presents on this discussion board?
Fallacy: Ad Hominem
GinnyThe reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
Example of Ad Hominem
Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."from http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
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Hi there Island Woman
by Julie ingreetings island woman,.
i see you had some words for me at the time i took a short sabbatical from this board.
thought i'd address a few of your thoughts.. :ignorance comes in many forms.
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GinnyTosken
Julie,
I had to be honest about how questionable I found your "objectivity" to be once I learned you were in friendly communication with Amazing. Sorry but I'd like to think that would be a red flag to anyone.
Was my "objectivity" tainted by friendly communication with you and Tina? Was your own "objectivity" tainted by your friendly communication with Amnesian?You are certainly free to think whatever you want. I described my initial impressions as though I'd never heard from either you or Amazing.
Ginny
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Hi there Island Woman
by Julie ingreetings island woman,.
i see you had some words for me at the time i took a short sabbatical from this board.
thought i'd address a few of your thoughts.. :ignorance comes in many forms.
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GinnyTosken
Julie,
When I found out that you and Ginny were e-mailing while she was writing "objective" things in your defense I couldn't help but doubt the degree of "objectivity" we are talking here.
I handled the situation as conscientiously as I could. My e-mail and telephone communication with you and Tina long preceded my first private communication with Amazing. I first wrote him privately after he posted his farewell. He wrote back to thank me for the kind words. When several days later he wrote me about issues raised in the threads related to elder culpability, I told him that I was also in communication with you, and told you that I was also in communication with Amazing.It was an awkward situation, and I felt obliged to be honest with both of you about my position.
Ginny
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Hi there Island Woman
by Julie ingreetings island woman,.
i see you had some words for me at the time i took a short sabbatical from this board.
thought i'd address a few of your thoughts.. :ignorance comes in many forms.
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GinnyTosken
Julie,
:Even while I was defending Amazing,
I'd have to re-read the threads myself, but I don't think *I* ever claimed to be presenting an objective point of view. I offered my subjective impressions and interpretations of events. The hope is that if we hear evidence from more than one point of view, we'll be able to make a more objective decision than if we heard presentations that were either all damning or all praising.Oops! Wait a minute here now! I thought you were merely tryingto present an *objective* point of view. Was this an objective defense then? That was my view, that you were putting up a defense for him while claiming to be striving for objectivity. I think, could be wrong her, that "objective-defense" might be an oxy-moron here.
The impressions I offered were genuine. At the same time, I could understand why you had formed yours, and I could also see how later events could be interpreted as supporting your point of view. Still, on a discussion board we're deciding based on circumstantial evidence. Only Amazing knows his true motivations.
I think we all knew that. On the serious side of it though, it makes one wonder how you could suddenly have this passionate compulsion to defend, no, view objectively, the situation of this man, who you earlier believed to be "egotistical" and "dogmatic". It gets a little confusing keeping up.
If you, Amnesian, Teejay, or Tina had calmly pointed out specific examples of what you considered shoddy behavior on Amazing's part and asked him to answer for them, I probably would not have said a word. I jumped into this fray because I felt Amazing was the object of more than his fair share of harsh and mocking personal criticism.Amazing's style often reminds me of my father's. My father often comes across as condescending and dogmatic, but he thinks he is being firm, loving, and kind. I couldn't help but think of how I would feel if my father had been publicly shamed as Amazing was on this board. I thought of how I would feel had I been in Amazing's shoes. It's not easy to accept public criticism, especially when it is mocking and sarcastic and is coming from many people at once. I chose to speak up in defense of Amazing.
:Most human beings I know have mixed and often conflicted motivations. Yes, I thought Amazing was egotistical. I also thought he was trying his best to do what he thought was right.
Time will tell. All of us reveal ourselves in our work. When assessing others, I try to beware of confirmation bias.I thought he was trying his best to come out looking as good as possible but that was just my take as has been explained countless times before, forgive me for not providing links etc.
Confirmation Bias
http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.htmlMy bottom line regarding you Ginny on this matter was I don't believe you were being as objective as you claimed and/or thought. You *were* defending Amazing but claiming otherwise, IMO. It surprised me to see you do that.
If you can show me where I claimed to be objective, I will humbly acknowledge and apologize for my mistake.A fair and objective discussion is one that presents as many possibilities and interpretations as possible. With Amazing it happened that my initial impressions were nearly opposite yours. I felt that your interpretations made as much sense as mine. Since only Amazing knows his motivations, I felt that this case was a matter of personal judgment. I chose to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Ginny
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Hi there Island Woman
by Julie ingreetings island woman,.
i see you had some words for me at the time i took a short sabbatical from this board.
thought i'd address a few of your thoughts.. :ignorance comes in many forms.
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GinnyTosken
Julie,
Dear, I think you were offended when I ROFLed at Amazing's praise to certain posters *especially Ginny's objectivity*. Ginny knows full well why I did an ROFL at that and Amazing probably doesn't but will after he talks to Ginny. Perhaps I may know things you do not Island Woman, things others would rather you didn't know. Things that have certainly changed (lowered) my opinion of one I once held in high esteem (and no it wasn't Amazing). Objective my eye.....
If you feel I have been a hypocrite, please call me out on it directly and publicly, Julie. I have nothing to hide. Even while I was defending Amazing, he knew that I also had the impression that he was egotistical and dogmatic, especially after my exchange with him shortly after the terrorist attacks in September.I also know that my impressions can be wrong, based as they are on limited information from a discussion board. I can see the other side, too, as I thought was demonstrated in the "Farewell to All" thread.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18663&site=3&page=4
Most human beings I know have mixed and often conflicted motivations. Yes, I thought Amazing was egotistical. I also thought he was trying his best to do what he thought was right.
I thought objectivity was all about letting the evidence speak for itself. You presented one side; I presented the other. People can decide for themselves what they want to believe about Amazing's character now.
Ginny
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Your favorite pic from the Kingdom pubs.
by LDH inthis one is for jt, who is interested in body modification (lol).
i will be the first to admit a rabid fascination with a certain picture....... back when i was about 7, i stumbled across the most fascinating picture in all of dubdom....... are you holding your breath?!?!?.
it was in the evolution or creation book....the picture of the black, african tribal woman with that huge freakin plate in her lip!.
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GinnyTosken
Oh, yeah! I almost forgot the picture of Englishman contemplating his very first beer:
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Your favorite pic from the Kingdom pubs.
by LDH inthis one is for jt, who is interested in body modification (lol).
i will be the first to admit a rabid fascination with a certain picture....... back when i was about 7, i stumbled across the most fascinating picture in all of dubdom....... are you holding your breath?!?!?.
it was in the evolution or creation book....the picture of the black, african tribal woman with that huge freakin plate in her lip!.
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GinnyTosken
Here are a few of my favorites.
The good old days, when men and women wore hats to church and Kingdom Halls still had windows:
The days before remote control, cable, and cell phones:
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John Edwards
by Judith inany thoughts on how he gets his info on dead people to feed back to families.
he seems to give out info that only the dead person would know.. is there a presence that exists after death?
are there people floating around before they go to wherever?
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GinnyTosken
See also:
"Crossing Over with John Edward" (July 2001)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8252&site=3#98294and
"Crossing over with John Edwards" (August 2001)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=10872&site=3#130996 -
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Karate
by Ranchette inthis year i have learned so much and what i keep being taught repeatedly through experience this time instead of what someone tells me, is that much of what the society taught us about the world and many of the things in it is pure nonsence!.
i'm just giving one example for now even though there are many.. my son who is in elementary school has over a period of time expressed a desire to do something extracurricular.. oh the shame!!!.
now out of all the different things out there we chose karate.. jws frown on this because its a form of self defence, a competitive sport and they have labeled it and all martial arts in fact as demonized.. he is learning shotokan karate.he loves it and not one demon or demonized thing has happened so far and never will.. in fact i like what they are teaching my son.. this saying is on the wall of the school or dojo,.
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GinnyTosken
Ranchette,
Many of the principles learned in martial arts are effective in other facets of life, too.
You're taught to channel the energy and momentum of an opponent against him. If someone comes charging at you, either physically or verbally, you can step out of the way and let him run into a wall, or block at the right spot and let his own energy flip him upside down.
I discovered that breaking a board, bricks, or concrete blocks is not about physical strength but about using correct techniques and understanding the materials you're working with. I'm just over 5 feet tall, and I felt tremendously empowered when I broke my first board with an elbow swipe.
Learning concentration and meditation is enormously valuable, too. I also like aikido and tai chi.
Oh yeah, and Ti Kwan Leep :
Teacher: Approach, students. Close the circle at the feet of the master.
GinnyYou have come to me asking that I be your guide along the path of Ti Kwan Leep. But, be warned: To learn its ways, you must learn the ways of your own soul. Let us meditate upon this wisdom now. So: Aaaaaaooooommm......
Student1 (Ed Gruberman): Uh, sir! Sir! (oo! oo!) Sir!
Teacher: Who disturbs our meditation, as a pebble disturbs the stillness of the pond?
EG: Me! Ed Gruberman?
Teacher: E-Ed Gruberman?
EG: Yeah, uh, no disrespect or nothin', but, like, uh, how long is this gonna take?
Teacher: Ti Kwan Leep is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.
EG: So like, what, an hour or so?
Teacher: No, no, we have not even begun upon the path. Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience.
EG: Yeah yeah yeah, patience. How long will that take?
Teacher: Time has no meaning. To a true student, a year is as a day.
EG: A YEAR??? I wanna beat people up right now! I got the pajamas! Hah woo yah ooomm!
Teacher: "Beat people up"...?
EG: Yeah! Just show me all those nifty moves so I can start trashing bozos! That's all I came here for! YO ASTA STA STA!!! Pretty good, ey?
Teacher: The only use of Ti Kwan Leep is self-defense. Do you know who said that? Ki Lo Ni, the great teacher.
EG: Yeah? Well the best defense is a good offense, you know who said that? Mel, the cook on "Alice".
Teacher: No, um...Ti Kwan Leep is the wine of purity, not the vinegar of hostility. Meditate upon this truth with us. Aaaaoooommm...
EG: Listen, shrimp! All this fag talk is really starting to piss me off. Now, are you gonna show me some fancy moves, or am I gonna start wipin' the walls with you?
Teacher: Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ti Kwan Leep. Approach me that you might see.
EG: All right! Finally some action!
Teacher: Observe closely, class. Boot to the Head! (SH-ZOOMP!)
EG (drunkenly): Owww! You booted me in the head!
Teacher: You are lucky, Ed Gruberman. Few novices experience so much of Ti Kwan Leep so soon.
EG (quietly, to himself): Ow, oh, my head!