fukitol

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Posts by fukitol

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  42

  I feel really, really sorry for those born into the Jehovah's Witness religion

  by jambon1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some facts that make the difference between you and me:.

  1 - as a person raised by non jw family, my parents have never loved me based on conditions set out by a group of old men who they don't even know.

  how does it feel to know that you are in the unique situation where your parents brought you into the world and said 'i'll show love to you.

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  fukitol

  Thank you for your very insightful opening post and for starting this thread.

  I am a born-in and can relate personally and deeply to everything you say. It was like reading about my own childhood.
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  14

  Has anyone out here read Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason"?

  by Captain Schmideo2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i wish i had read this back when i was 18. it's an amazing take down of religious beliefs, the bible, and religion in general.

  ) a "reason"-able manner.take this quote, from near the beginning:.

  when also i am told that a woman, called the virgin mary, said, or gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband, joseph, said that an angel told him so, i have a right to believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it: but we have not even this; for neither joseph nor mary wrote any such matter themselves.

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  fukitol

  Reading the writings of the great sceptics like Voltaire, Paine, and Ingersoll is the greatest cure to rid oneself of lifelong religious indoctrination. They are even more powerful in cleansing the mind of religious dogma and superstition than acceptance of evolution.
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  34

  Why didn't God also reveal himself to the Canaanites just as he did to Moses in the burning bush?

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  why didn't god also reveal himself to the canaanites just as he did to moses in the burning bush so that the massacre/genocide of the canaanites could have been avoided?.

  why didn't god also invite the native palestinians into his covenant, giving them the same laws he gave the israelites, and establish an egalitarian society where people of all races could live together in harmony?.

  instead, he ordered his people to invade and slaughter the natives, killing them to the last man, woman and child, specifically instructing them to show no mercy to anyone under any circumstances.

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  fukitol

  These are mostly true ancient accounts of ancient Jewish genocide and war crimes overlaid with pure myth invented by the Jewish priest class who said it was all done at Yahwehs order. How else to morally justify what is morally indefensible and proclaim divine right to stolen land. It's called divine command theory.
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  9

  Why blame the Watchtower?

  by deegee in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  if god has a relationship with every christian and every christian is praying to him then wouldn't he tell every christian the same thing so that christians would agree on matters of doctrine and practice?.

  it is certainly puzzling why sincere and devout people equally seek god's will and pray to him yet they all come up with different answers so that there are approximately 40,000 different christian denominations (center for the study of global christianity (csgc) at gordon-conwell theological seminary).. before his death, jesus called for agreement among his followers rather than division (john 17:20-21).

  he declared that he would send the holy spirit to guide persons into all the truth (john 14:16 - 17, 26, john 15:26, john 16:7,13 - 15).. so shouldn't anyone who has a relationship with jesus, reads the bible, and listens to the holy spirit come to the same conclusions as others who are doing the same thing?.

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  fukitol

  http://infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/confusion.htmlhttp://http://infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/confusion.html
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  113

  I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...

  by ILoveTTATT2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).

  actually, i am helping with two classes.

  i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.

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  fukitol

  You've got to keep in mind that Cofty used to be a JW preacher, used to be a preachy born again Christian, and now he's a preachy atheist. He just has to preach, period.
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  17

  If Jehovah is our 'father', he would want humankind to independently govern itself

  by fukitol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  all parents want their children to grow up, mature, and become happily independent.

  no normal father or parent would ever want to govern and rule over their children forever.. so if jehovah exists and he is a heavenly 'father' to his human progeny, and if we truly are in his image as his children, then humankind was always destined to govern itself.

  if you believe in the biblical narrative, jehovah always intended to let go of his human children and let us rule ourselves when we were ready.

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  fukitol

  So you are defending the JWS stance then, Cold Steel, but from an orthodox Christian perspective?

  If you don't believe humans are capable of ever ruling ourselves, then in what way are we in God's image? Humans are imbued with the same inherent faculties and qualities of God and Jesus to achieve more or less anything, as was admitted at the Tower of Babel, but it stops short of self determination? Why?

  And how is it that all known offspring eventually matures and leaves it's parents and becomes independent of its parents authority, but not humans? How unnatural.

  Contradiction upon contradiction.

  Anyway, you missed the obvious orthodox Christian rebuttal of my thought experiment: sin and death.

  God's intervention and the ransom sacrifice was needed to free the human race from Adamic sin and death...right?
• 
  78

  A stunning piece of LOGIC from the Apostle Paul

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  1st corinthians 15 12-17. but if it is preached that christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

  if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even christ has been raised.

  and if christ has not been raised, your faith is futile... .

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  fukitol

  I can't understand why the idea of resurrection should be incredible

  I find it incredible to read such a daft statement. It's like saying "I can't understand why the idea of fairies living at the bottom of my garden should be incredible."
  
  
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  17

  If Jehovah is our 'father', he would want humankind to independently govern itself

  by fukitol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  all parents want their children to grow up, mature, and become happily independent.

  no normal father or parent would ever want to govern and rule over their children forever.. so if jehovah exists and he is a heavenly 'father' to his human progeny, and if we truly are in his image as his children, then humankind was always destined to govern itself.

  if you believe in the biblical narrative, jehovah always intended to let go of his human children and let us rule ourselves when we were ready.

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  fukitol

  Not so Saename. JW theology teaches that after the millennial reign and final test (further global genocidal culling), surviving mankind will be in a restored state as perfect sons of God again, like Adam was, with Jehovah as their direct heavenly father without a mediator and no 144k ruling over them. So it will be like a family relationship. This is what the JWS teach.

  But what sort of family is it when the children are forever under their parents authority? Since no father wants to rule or govern over his grown up children and if perfect humans are in their father Jehovahs image, then we were created ultimately to govern ourselves.

  The point I'm trying to make is that this means there is no need for God to ever intervene in human affairs because his original purpose was in fact for us to eventually govern ourselves independently anyway. He's left us to it because he knows we'll get there eventually.

  Jehovah wanted humankind to get to that state of independence without experiencing suffering and death, but he knew it would be impossible without their experientially learning the difference between good and bad. His children had to suffer, to go through the school of hard knocks, to learn and grow and become like their heavenly father. Satan didn't really lie about that. The only way for us to truly learn the difference between good and bad is to be free to make our own choices and learn the consequences for ourselves. Jehovah knew it and had to let the 'rebellion' happen.

  I'm just trying to get JW lurkers to stretch their minds in contemplating these inherent contradictions in the dogmas they've been taught by WBTS regarding free will, why God permits suffering, etc.
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  17

  If Jehovah is our 'father', he would want humankind to independently govern itself

  by fukitol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  all parents want their children to grow up, mature, and become happily independent.

  no normal father or parent would ever want to govern and rule over their children forever.. so if jehovah exists and he is a heavenly 'father' to his human progeny, and if we truly are in his image as his children, then humankind was always destined to govern itself.

  if you believe in the biblical narrative, jehovah always intended to let go of his human children and let us rule ourselves when we were ready.

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  fukitol

  No, of course not, I'm more or less an atheist. But it's an argument as if I might be a JW.

  Don't get all ad hominim.
• 
  17

  If Jehovah is our 'father', he would want humankind to independently govern itself

  by fukitol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  all parents want their children to grow up, mature, and become happily independent.

  no normal father or parent would ever want to govern and rule over their children forever.. so if jehovah exists and he is a heavenly 'father' to his human progeny, and if we truly are in his image as his children, then humankind was always destined to govern itself.

  if you believe in the biblical narrative, jehovah always intended to let go of his human children and let us rule ourselves when we were ready.

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  fukitol

  Nicolau, if Adam and Eve hadn't have sinned, would they need ruling over by God? Jehovah was their parent, not their eternal ruler.

  What is the point of the 144,000 and who do they comprise? They are human corulers ruling over humanity. God is not ruling during the millennial reign, mankind is ruled by humans in heaven. Technically the 144k rule equally with Jesus, they are not subservient to him.

  And there are references in Revelation to kings on earth, after the millennial reign.

  Jehovah granted the Israelites request to have a human king, although he warned it would bring trouble (because they were appointing a human dictator). God recognised the Israelites right to self-rule, as imperfect as the arrangement was.

  What normal father does not naturally want and lovingly nurture his children to become mature, independent, self sufficient, morally responsible persons? It's an intractable contradiction for JWs to claim God is there father and that they are his children but that they are forever incapable of independent self rule.