Posts by Rapunzel

42

Why did Death not stop as soon as the RANSOM was paid?

by jwfacts in

terry's recent thread about god's love made me start wondering the above question.

normally a ransom is done as a swap, the payment is made on exchange.

2000 years ago jesus made payment by dieing.

Rapunzel

A poem by Emily Dickinson entitled "Death" -

"Because I could not stop for Death,

He kindly stopped for me;

The carriage held but just ourselves,

and Immortality.

We slowly drove, he knew no haste

And I had put away

My labor, and my leisure too,

For his civility.

We passed the school, where children strove

At recess, in the ring;

We passed the fields of gazing grain

We passed the setting sun.

Or rather be passed us;

The dews grew quivering and chill,

For only gossamer my gown,

My tipet only tulle.

We paused before house that seemed

A swelling of the ground;

The roof was scarcely visible,

The cornice but a mound.

Since then 'tis centuries, and yet each

Feels shorter than the day

I first surmised the horses' heads

Were toward eternity.

44

Witness Kids - Scared silly by the WTBTS

by misspeaches in

i wonder if anyone else who grew up as a jw can relate with me on this subject.. i grew up hearing stories of 'faithful brothers & sisters' being tortured to a point where they were almost dead.

all they had to do to be set free was renounce jehovah and their religon.

the stories i heard of torture were graphic in nature and to this day i can not handle hearing about torture or watch it being portrayed in movies.

Rapunzel

In my post above, I did not intend to be "off key" or spiteful to Miss Peaches, or to anyone else. I'm sorry if my posting appeared that way.

There's one point that I forgot to mention and that is that the Witnesses tales of torture are really nothing but a variation on the old Christian martyrs stories. Without a doubt, there were indeed some Christians who suffered martyrdom for their faith; they died by the hand of people hostile to the Christian religion. However, as they exist in the popular imagination, these stories of Christian martyrs are exaggerated. For example, the Christian religion was never "illegal" uder the Roman Empire, as is imagined today. Before they built their churches, Christian met in private homes. The popular image ot them meeting in catacombs is largely a myth.

But the idea of martyrdom has always been - and still is - attractive to some people, especially members of the three "Abrahamic" religions: Judaism, Christianty, and Islam. Examples of martyrdom, and the attractions of martyrdom, are found in the histories of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. During the period of the Roman occupation of Palestine, there was a heavy focus on martyrdom in Jewish thought. Given that Christianity and Islam developed out of - and were responses to - Judaism, it's little wonder that they manifest a certain focus on martyrdom. In the minds of some Christian and Moslems, this focus becomes an obsession.

Jehovah's "Christian Witnesses," as they so fondly call themselves, are simply carrying on the tradition and imagining themselves to be at least potential Christian martyrs. By dscribing the tribulations of the "brothers" in Malawi, Wiitnesses are able to vicariously live the life of martyrs. Vicarious satisfaction is also a typically human trait. Parents especially experience satisfaction vacariously through the lives of their children. With a minimum of personal investment, Witnesses attain vacarious satisfaction in recounting tales of suffering and victimization. Is this a unhealthy attiude? Yes, it is, but it's a perspective with an old "pedigree."

44

Witness Kids - Scared silly by the WTBTS

by misspeaches in

i wonder if anyone else who grew up as a jw can relate with me on this subject.. i grew up hearing stories of 'faithful brothers & sisters' being tortured to a point where they were almost dead.

all they had to do to be set free was renounce jehovah and their religon.

the stories i heard of torture were graphic in nature and to this day i can not handle hearing about torture or watch it being portrayed in movies.

Rapunzel

Miss Peaches - I was saddened to read about the psychological woesthat you suffered due to being told tales of torture by the Witnesses. Unfortunately, this sort of intimidation is by no means limited to the Witnesses; and by no means is it new.

Wasn't it at Benetar who sang "Hell is for children"? Isn't there a story in the Bible about some children mocking the prophet Elija [or was it Elisha?]. Anyway, the account goes on to relate how the prophet in question summoned some she-bears from the forest that devoured the naughty kids. In ancient Rome, when parents wanted to scare their kids into submission, they would say "Hannibal ad portas" - "Hannibal's at the gates." Hannibal served as a sort of bogeyman of that day and age. Speaking of bogeymen, I'm sure your aware that tradional nursery rhymes and fables are just as gruesome - if not more so - than anything that the Witnesses ever concocted. I'm thinking specifically of the tales by the Grimm brothers. Grimm is an apt name indeed; these stories are indeed "grim" and morbid and macabre. They are violent and gruesome beyond imagination.

Did you ever carefully read the "Alice In Wonderland" ["Alice's Journey Through the Looking-Glass"] story. Another title could be "Alice in Horrorland" or "Alice in Hell." There is a proliific American author, Joyce Carol Oates. Her genre is the grotesque; and she's a favorite of mine. Oates explains how reading this "generally very disturbing book" affected her as a child.

As I said, scaring children with gruesome stories is an ancient and almost universal tactic. To "theorize" a little, I think that such stories are possibly a way for adults to "socialize" their children. I think that parents/adults desire - at a deely sub-conscious level - to prepare children for the horrors of the world. Adults use fictitious horrors to strengthen children against the very real horrors of the world. As I mentioned, much of this process goes on at a sub-conscious level. It involves a process of socialization through fear. To a certain extent, "Halloween" serves a similar purpose. It allows children to confront the fears of existence, such as evil and death, in a "safe" and "fun" manner.

I really think that - as horrific as they are - the torture tales of the Witnesses are no worse than Grimm's fairy tales or Alice in Wonder-land. As for whether they are "true" or not, I would say that most of the stories are "embellishments" [some would say "lies'] and urban legends. But, then again, it's a moot point. The world is in fact a horrible place. In it, there do exist horrors and atrocities such as torture; rape; famine; sadism; evil of every nature. Kids have to be "steeled" [as in the hard metal] against the evils of the world.

32

Feeling numb

by daniella in

i guess i'm now an ex-girlfriend/ex-unofficial fiancee of a disfellowshipped-but-still-believing jw.

i am still reeling from what i discovered last week.

the same friend told me.

Rapunzel

From what you say, this guy sounds like REAL BAD NEWS. From your description, he presents a textbook case of a manipulative, abusive sociopath. It seems that he is not looking for a partner,he's looking for a puppet and a slave. I know that it might sound difficult, but the best thing - the only thing - that you should do is to forget about him. It will take time, perhaps sveral months, but it is possible. I know it's a cliche, but time heals most wounds. You seem to be a sincere and well-educated lady. No doubt you have so much to offer a man who will truly love you for who you are. Believe me, your life with this guy will be absolute misery and suffering.

41

Is Satan actually the good guy, and Jehovah the evil usurper?

by 10p in

a few years ago i read genesis again, and with a more objective mind, got the sense that satan was actually telling the truth, and that god was just trying to have humans be his slaves.

and god's reign over humans hasn't been all that pretty, in fact, its been downright awful.. 'course, i'm atheist now, so i wouldn't believe it even that way around - not literally anyway.

but i wondered if the writer/editors of genesis may have actually had this thought.. anyone know of any sources that explore this idea in depth?.

Rapunzel

Real one, you're chatting Satan up, are you now? As if you were on intimate terms with the Evil One, good old horny himself. All that I can say is - "Bad boy, real one!" It's time for you to go to bed, Say your prayers, and remember not to play with yourself. God doesn't like it, and you may go blind.

41

Is Satan actually the good guy, and Jehovah the evil usurper?

by 10p in

a few years ago i read genesis again, and with a more objective mind, got the sense that satan was actually telling the truth, and that god was just trying to have humans be his slaves.

and god's reign over humans hasn't been all that pretty, in fact, its been downright awful.. 'course, i'm atheist now, so i wouldn't believe it even that way around - not literally anyway.

but i wondered if the writer/editors of genesis may have actually had this thought.. anyone know of any sources that explore this idea in depth?.

Rapunzel

There are also Gnostic accounts that claim that the earth's "Creator" was in fact an evil demiurge. The original intent of this demiurge was to create humans only for the purpose of keeping them as slaves. Some Gnostic teachings do in fact interpret the snake in a positive manner. According to this conception, the role of the snake was essentially the same as that of Prometheus who stole fire from the gods and gave it to humans. The snake was seen as a liberator. It all depends on the myth that you choose.

41

Is Satan actually the good guy, and Jehovah the evil usurper?

by 10p in

a few years ago i read genesis again, and with a more objective mind, got the sense that satan was actually telling the truth, and that god was just trying to have humans be his slaves.

and god's reign over humans hasn't been all that pretty, in fact, its been downright awful.. 'course, i'm atheist now, so i wouldn't believe it even that way around - not literally anyway.

but i wondered if the writer/editors of genesis may have actually had this thought.. anyone know of any sources that explore this idea in depth?.

Rapunzel

Perhaps someone with a more profound knowledge of the Bible would disagree with me, but in my opinion, I do not think that the writer[s] of the Genesis account equated or identified the "snake" in the story with Satan. I do not think that the ancient Israelites maintained a conception of Satan. I believe that they developed the notion of Satan much later in their history - probably after being exposed to the idea by the Persians. It was the ancient Persians who introduced the concept of an active, evil force. In the Job story, "Satan" is not banished to Hell or wherever; he's allowed into heaven. He's a character who is hostile to humans, but he has not yet developed into the entity as imagined today. That concept would come into being later. Again, I think it was the Persians, with their dualistic, Manichean world-view who "presented" the idea of "Satan" to the world. The ancient Persians were Zoroastrians whose beliefs profoundly influenced the Jews, and later Christians and Moslems. I believe that the concept of Satan can be traced back to the Persians. When they liberated the Israelites from Babylonian captivity, there occurred a "sea-change" in the Jews'world-view. In turn, Jewish thinking influenced later Christian and Moslem thought.

It's true that Jesus identifies the snake in the Edenic myth with Satan, but of course, by then, Zoroastrian thought had already influenced many people in the classical world.

48

In Memorandum of Charlie Heston.

by AK - Jeff in

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/ap_on_en_mo/obit_heston_14.

what artistic achievements of this great actor stand out to you?

rip .

Rapunzel

First of all, I believe that the expression that you're looking for is - In Memorium. The word memorandum refers to a brief note that a person jots down on a piece of paper. From the word memorandum, we get the word memo.

As for Heston, he was a homophobic, anti-semitic, misogynist racist much admired by none other than Daivd Duke. Heston trivialized the Holocaust. A case could be made for Heston's acting skills, but as a person, he was hateful and vile. And this fact made him the ideal spokesman for the paranoid organizational collective known as the N.R.A. - a group that is even more dangerous to American society than all of the religious cults combined.

American society is much better off now that the words, in memorium, can be put before Heston's name. But I decidedly do not hope that Heston is in Hell. In fact, I hope that he is in heaven, with other luminous exemplars of American society such as Roy Cohn and Joseph McCarthy. Moreover, after he approaches the throne of God, I hope that Heston is greeted by a Jewish, Negro, lesbian.

56

What To Say When Someone Says "If U Can Find A Religion That's Better......

by minimus in

jw
friends

"if you can find a religion that's better than jehovah's witnesses, let me know where i can find it".....i've heard jws say this in defense of "the truth" that they know is not 100% right.. what would you say to a witness that suggests that jehovah's witnesses are still better than all the others???

?.

Rapunzel

If a Witness were to say this to me, I would mention the Unitarian-Universalists; their "tent" is so broad that anyone and everyone is welcome. U-U is probably the only religion in which anyone, professing any doctrine whatsoever, would not feel uncomfortable. By the way, I'm not a Unitarian-Universalist, and this is not a "plug" for them. However, I know enough aboiut them to realize that they respect and tolerate all beliefs.

44

Newbies & Lurkers - Let's Get to Know You - Please Tell Us Your Story

by flipper in

jw
friends

at the suggestion of my sis named dinah ( thanks dinah ) we thought it would be good to invite newbies , lurkers , or any others junior members etc.

to tell their stories of how they got out of the jehovah's witnesses or what you dealt with before getting out of which you had to overcome !

life is hard- we all have our stories , but on this board are many caring people who will be here for you if you need a soft place to land after being controlled by the jehovah's witnesses mindset.

Rapunzel

I think that the classification "newbie," and the other classifications all depend on the number, i.e. the numeric quantity, of posts that a person makes, not on how long - in terms of days; months; or years - a person has been posting. I think that one's classification changes automatically as the number of a person's postings increases. In other words, if a person were to make one post a year, he/she would still be a "newbie" even after ten years because a person remains a newbie until they make [I believe] 50 posts.