Posts by Rapunzel

50

Furuli. The prominent elder in Norway not too popular among top dogs

by Samuel Thorsen in

jw
friends

a trustworthy source has given me the opportunity to share some information about rolf furuli.

a well known apologist og and greatly respected elder in norway and a schoolar at the university of oslo.

he does not compleatly agree with the fds in all cases i guess, and lately he has spoken up in his local congo about 3 subjects.. # 1. education.

Rapunzel

Furuli is a scholar at the University of Oslo? Iin what field is he a scholar?

12

CONGREGATION MEMBERS WHO CLAIM TO BE PEOPLE IN BIBLE

by badboy in

jw
friends

anyone claiming to be moses,elijah jesus christ etc etc

Rapunzel

By the way, I claim to be both John The Baptist and Mary, I'm hermaphrodite.

12

CONGREGATION MEMBERS WHO CLAIM TO BE PEOPLE IN BIBLE

by badboy in

jw
friends

anyone claiming to be moses,elijah jesus christ etc etc

Rapunzel

Uugh, Lone Ranger, there is, after all, J.C.

36

Need Your Opinions on a Strange Private Mail I Received - Give Me Your Take

by flipper in

jw
friends

so- 2 weeks ago i got this private mail from a poster who had never posted on the jwd board before .

which seemed strange to me in , and of itself - what would cause this person to pm me ?

anyway a poster named oak sent me this message : under the title : " did you know ?

I thought that one had to be registered to send a p.m. Most of the board is closed to "guests." In order to even browse through the member list, a person must first register. So how could someone send a p.m. without registering?

36

Need Your Opinions on a Strange Private Mail I Received - Give Me Your Take

by flipper in

jw
friends

so- 2 weeks ago i got this private mail from a poster who had never posted on the jwd board before .

which seemed strange to me in , and of itself - what would cause this person to pm me ?

anyway a poster named oak sent me this message : under the title : " did you know ?

Rapunzel

Flip - This is a very bizarre situation that you are describibg. As has been pointed out, there is no poster with the name "Oak" in the member directory; and the member directory contains the names of every - and I mean every - person who has ever registered on this forum. To my knowledge, in order to send private messages, a person must be registered [although I admitedly may be wrong on this poin]t.It just does not "add up," if you know what I mean. If they are not registered, how were they able to send you a p.m.? If they have registered, why are they not in the directory? Very strange indeed. My advice would be to ignore him/her. And of course, as you without a doubt know, don't give your e-mail address or any other information.

12

Joseph Campbell's Comments on "Sects"

by Rapunzel in

recently, i have been reading jospeh campbell's myths to live by.

in it, on pages 213 - 214, there is the following passage: .

"a functioning mythological symbol i have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.

Rapunzel

Hi Narkissos - As ever, I find your post very interesting also. Thanks for your reply.

With you, I agree that any approach to the question of "sects" and/or "cults" should be conducted via a variety of approaches, that way, the various "data" supplied could serve only to increase awareness and provide insights. The psychological/archetypal approach proposed by Campbell should most certainly be "complemented" [enhanced] by the methodology of other academic/research disciplines. One could study a group with an eye toward its diachronic development [history] or its synchronic relations with society at large. In fact, the issue is a very broad one and calls for study using different approaches.

I also agree with your idea that modern Western societies are "Janus-faced" in their theoretical "embrace" and encouragement of diversity; whereas, in fact, they manage to impose, in practice, as much uniformity and conformity as they can. What eludes me [and perhaps it is here that you could assist me] is exactly who carries out these "policies of conformity." Are these decisions conscious ones on the part of a specific group of individuals? Is it politicians who are responsible? Or the so-called "titans" of industry/commerce? The military? The media? A combination of the afore-mentioned? After all, the term modern Western democracies, though commonly used, is a broad one. To appropriate a metaphor, there are "many countries and societies under that tent." There are many countries that can be put in this category. Each country has its own unique and distinct history and concerns.

Or, rather, is this phenomena a more diffuse one? To use the German phrase, is it a zeitgeist, a "spirit of the times"?

By the way, Narkissos, I seem to remember that you mention the idea of "play" or "man playing a given role." I cannot remember the specific thread, but it seems to me that you mention this notion of "play" or "role playing." Perhaps it was a thread on Nietzsche. In any case, there is a very interesting quote in Campbell's Myths To Live By. In the following passage, Campbell quotes a book by J. Huizinga, entitled Homo Ludens: A Study of the Play-Element in Culture, and published by Routledge in 1949. The following passage is from the chapter, "The Inspiration of Oriental Art" - "There is a curious, extremely nteresting term in Japanese that refers to a very special manner of polite, aristocratic speech known as 'play language,' asobase kotoba, whereby, instead of saying to a person, for example, 'I see that you have come to Tokyo,' one would express the observation by saying, 'I see that you are playing at being in Tokyo' - the idea being that the person addressed is in such control of his life and his powers that for him everything is a play, a game. He is able to enter into life as one would enter into a game, freely and at ease. And this idea is carried even so far that instead of saying to a person, 'I hear that your father has died,' you would say, rather, 'I hear that your father has played at dying.'

And now, I submit that this is truly a noble, really glorious way to approach life. What has to be done is attacked with such a will that in the performance one is literally 'in play.' That is the attitude designated by Nietzsche in Amor fati, love of one's fate.It is what the old Roman Seneca referred to iin his often quoted saying: Ducentvolentem fata, nolentemtrahunt: 'The Fates lead him who will; him who won't, they drag."

12

Joseph Campbell's Comments on "Sects"

by Rapunzel in

recently, i have been reading jospeh campbell's myths to live by.

in it, on pages 213 - 214, there is the following passage: .

"a functioning mythological symbol i have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.

Rapunzel

In my opinion, Campbell is truly nonpareil in the field of comparative mythology, This quote is from page 202 of Myths To Live By - "My own had been a work based on a comparative study of the mythologies of mankind [here, Campbell is referring to his 1949 classic, The Hero with a Thousand Faces], with only here and there passing references to the phenomenology of dream, hysteria, mystic visions, and the like. Mainly, it was an organiztion of themes and motifs common to all mythologies; and I had no idea, in bringing these together, of the extent to which they would correspond to the fantasies of madness. According to my thinking, they were the universal, archetypal, psychologically based symbolic themes and motifs of all traditional mythologies; and now from this paper of Dr. Perry [published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, vol. 96, January 27, 1962, pp. 853 - 876] I was learning that the same symbolic figures arise spontaneously from the broken-off, tortured state of mind of modern individuals suffering from a complete schizophrenic breakdown: the condition of one who has lost touch with the life and thought of his community and is compulsively fantasizing out of his own completely cut-off base.

Very briefly: The usual pattern is, first, of a break away or departure from the local social order and context; next, a long, deep inward retreat inward and backward, backward, as it were, in time, and inward, deep into the psyche; a chaotic series of encounters there, darkly terrifying experiences, and presently (if the victim is fortunate) encounters of a centering kind, fulfilling, harmonizing, giving new courage; and then finally, in such fortunate cases, a return journey of rebirth to life.

And that is the universal formula also of the mythological hero journey, which I, in my own published work [The Hero with a Thousand Faces], had described as: 1) separation, 2) initiation, and 3) return:

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow men (H.W.T.F., page 30)

That is the pattern of the myth, and that is the pattern of these fantasies of the psyche.

On page 230 of M.T.L.B., Campbell writes - "In sum, then: The inward journeys of the mythological hero, the shaman, the mystic, and the schizophrenic are in principle the same; and when the return or remission occurs, it is experienced as a rebirth, that is to say, of a 'twice born' ego, no longer bound in by its daylight-world horizon."

In general, I have found Campbell's Myths To Live By a fantastic and fascinating treasure trove of ideas and viewpoints. The following is just one example, Taken from the seventh chapter of the book, entitled "The Mythology of Love," it presents an unorthodox, antinomian [in the sense of contrary to customary conception] portait of Satan. This [re]visionary understanding of Satan is taken from a mystical Persian source. However, it is antithetical to both orthodox Christian and Moslem mythology. According to this portrait, Satan's plight, his banishment to Hell, was not due to pride or animosity, it was due to his love for God. The quote on page 148 reads as follows - "One of the most amazing images of love that I know is Persian - a mystical Persian representation of Satan as the most loyal lover of God. You will have all heard the old legend of how, when God created the angels, he commanded them to pay worship to no one but himself; but then, creating man, he commanded them [the angels] to bow in reverence to this most noble of his works, and Lucifer refused - because, we are told, of his pride.

However, according to this Moslem reading of his case, it was rather because he [Satan] loved, and adored God so deeply and intensely that he could not bring himself to bow before anything else. And it was for that that he was flung into Hell condemned to exist there forever, apart from his love.

Now it has been said that of all the pains of Hell, the worst is neither the fire nor stench but the deprivation forever of the beatific sight of God. How infinitely painful, then, must be the exile of this great lover be, who could not bring himself, even on God's own word, to bow before any other being!

The Persian poets have asked, 'By what power is Satan sustained?' And the answer that they found is this: 'By his memory of the sound of God's voice when he said, "Be gone!"' What an image of the exquisite spiritual agony which is at once the rapture and agony of love!"

12

Joseph Campbell's Comments on "Sects"

by Rapunzel in

recently, i have been reading jospeh campbell's myths to live by.

in it, on pages 213 - 214, there is the following passage: .

"a functioning mythological symbol i have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.

Rapunzel

Hi - In order to be fair to Campell, I have to say that in Myths to Live By, there is a distinction made between essential and paranoid schizophrenia. It seems that for Campbell, there are connections that can be made between the essential schizophrenic and the traditional shamin. Moreover, Myths To Live By consists of a collection twelve (12) articles which were originally lectures delivered by Campbell. The lecture, "Schizophrenia - the Inward Journey" was first given in 1970. Of course, the sciences of psychiatry psyhopathology have made great prrogress both in diagnosis and treatment,

In any case, the passage reads - In his article, Dr. [Julian] Silverman [of the National Institute of Mental Health] had distinguished two very different types of schizophrenia. One he calls essential schizophrenia; the other, paranoid schizophrenia; and it is in essential schizophrenia alone that analogies appear with what I have termed the 'shamin crisis.' In essential schizophrenia the characteristic pattern is withdrawl from the impacts of experience in the outside world. There is a narrowiing of concern and focus. The object world falls back and away, and invasions from the unconscious overtake and overwhelm one. In paranoidschizophrenia, on the other hand, the person remains alert and extremely sensitive to the world and its events, interpreting all, however, in terms of his own projected fantasies, fears, and terrors, and with a sense of being in danger from assaults. The assaults, actually are from within, but he projects them outward...This, states Dr. Silverman, is not the type of schizophrenia that leads to the sorts of inward experience that are analogous to those of shamanism. 'It is as if the paranoid schizophrenic,' he explains, unable to comprehend or tolerate the stark terrors of his inner world, prematurely directs his atention to the outside world, In this sort of abortive crisis solution, the inner chaos is not, so to speak, worked through, or is not capable of being worked through.' The lunatic victim is at large, so to say, in the field of his own projected unconscious."

The opposite type of psychotic patient [suffering from essential schizophrenia], on the other hand,...has dropped into a snake-pit deep within, His whole attention, his whole being, is down there, engaged in a life-and-death battle with the terrible apparitions of unmastered psychological energies - which... is exactly what the potential shaman is doing in the period of his visionary journey."

For Campbell, the difference between the shamin and the "essential schizophrenic" is that the shamin does not reject the local social order and its forms. In fact, it is by virtue of these forms that he is brought back to rational consciosness.

62

Any other gays?

by dwtnphotog in

hi, just wanted to see if i have any "brothers" in the great state of california or anywhere for that matter.

it would be nice to have some support and help for each other!

Rapunzel

Has anyone mentioned J.C.? Has he mentioned himself?

12

Joseph Campbell's Comments on "Sects"

by Rapunzel in

recently, i have been reading jospeh campbell's myths to live by.

in it, on pages 213 - 214, there is the following passage: .

"a functioning mythological symbol i have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.

Rapunzel

Recently, I have been reading Jospeh Campbell's Myths To Live By. In it, on pages 213 - 214, there is the following passage:

"A functioning mythological symbol I have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.' Dr. [John] Perry [a psychiatrist at the University of California] has termed such signals 'affect images.' Their messages are addressed not to the brain...Yet they pass through the brain, and the educated brain may intefere, misinterpret, and so short-circuit the messages. When that occurs the signs no longer function as they should. The inherited mythology is garbled, and its guiing value lost or misconstrued. Or, what is worse, one may have been brought up to respond to a set of signal not present in the general environment; as is frequently the case, for example, with children raised in the circles of certain special sects [emphasis mine], not participating in - and even despising or resenting - the culture forms of the rest of civilization. Such a person will never feel quite at home in the larger social field, but always uneasy and even slightly paranoid. Nothing touches him as it should. means to him what it should, or moves him as it moves others. He is compelled to retreat for his satisfactions back to the restricted and accordinglyrestricting context of the sect... to which he was attuned. He is disorientated, and even dangerous, in the larger field [...] More normally, rational parents will wish to have produced socially as well as physically healthy offspring, well enough attuned to the system of sentiments of the culture into which they are growing to be able to appraise its values rationally and align themselves constructively with its progressive, decent, life-fostering, and fructifying elements.

And so we have this critical problem...of seeing to it that the mythology...that we are communicating to our young will deliver directive messages qualified to relate them richly and vitally to the environment that is to be theirs for life, and not to some period of man already past, some piously desiderated future, or - what is worst of all - some querulous, freakish sect or momenary fad. And I call this problem critical because, when it is badly resolved, the result for the miseducated individual is what is known, in mythological terms, as a "Waste Land" situattion. The world does not talk to him; he does not talk to the world. When that is the case, there is a cut-off [or alienation]...and he is in prime shape for that psychotic break-away that will turn him into either an essential schizophrenic in a padded cell, or a paranoid screaming slogans at large, in a bughouse without walls."

I am wondering if anyone here can identify with any of the points made by Campbell in his book. In your estimation, is he totally "off the mark," as they say?

I have to say that, in general, I find this book a fascinating read.