Posts by Pickled

14

Question: When did satan become ruler of the world according to JW?

by Pickled in

i asked this question on another thread about trees in eden but it may be off topic, so asking here instead.

according to wtbts doctrine, when did satan become the ruler of the world?

was it immediately after the humans were banished from the garden, or was it later when he fought with michael and was banished from heaven and sent to the earth?

Pickled

Ok, I can see that this Vindication book must be "Old Light" as well. "New Light" explains that using the name "Lucifer" as a proper name for the devil is incorrect and that it was those corrupt and wicked Catholics who came up with that name. That name, as I mentioned above, comes from the Latin "Lucem Ferre" or Light Bearer, or Morning Star, and this is indicated also in their "New Light."

Rutherford uses the name Lucifer as a proper name for the devil. Rutherford was obviously not functioning as a "Lucem Ferre"....or Light Bearer....."Old" or "New".....he was just "Wrong".

So does that mean I need to look for more recent literature, or "New Light" to answer my question about the divisions of authority between God and satan concerning earthly rule? Or does the average JW exercise independent thinking and sort through "Old Light" and "New Light" in every piece of literature in order to answer their questions? I think I will play it safe and look for literature that instead has more "New Light" than "Old Light" to find my answer. How do I load the 2007 Watchtower Library CD? I think it's the one that has the little girl, the man, and the gold computer that is obviously not hooked up to the internet and is missing a brand logo.

14

Question: When did satan become ruler of the world according to JW?

by Pickled in

i asked this question on another thread about trees in eden but it may be off topic, so asking here instead.

according to wtbts doctrine, when did satan become the ruler of the world?

was it immediately after the humans were banished from the garden, or was it later when he fought with michael and was banished from heaven and sent to the earth?

Pickled

Leolaia, here is what I am looking at...

Vindication, Vol. 1, 1931
Page 282
Prior to his rebellion Lucifer was a servant of Jehovah,
clothed with power and authority to inflict the
death penalty for the violation of God’s law. (Ezek.
28 : 14 ; Heb. 2 : 14) When Jehovah withdrew his favor
from Israel and determined upon its destruction, that
nation passed under the control of Satan by sufferance,
and Satan, by the sufferance of Jehovah, became
the god of the entire world. Nebuchadnezzar, being
the visible head of the universal world power, there

Ezek 21 RULERS 283
sat in the position similar to that occupied by Lucifer
prior to his rebellion. God used Nebuchadnezzar,
the king of Babylon, to punish Israel; and for that
purpose Nebuchadnezzar was the servant of Jehovah,
and Jehovah spoke of Nebuchadnezzar as his servant.
(Jer. 25: 9; 27: 6; Ezek. 29: 19,20) Nebuchadnezzar
was not a type of Jesus Christ merely because God
used him for his purpose to foreshadow the destruction
of Christendom. As long as Israel was a covenant
people of God, Nebuchadnezzar could not be the universal
ruler of the world; and when God cast Israel
off, Nebuchadnezzar, being the representative of Satan
on earth, became the universal ruler of the world
by reason of what God did to the Israelites; and
hence it is properly said that Jehovah gave Nebuchadnezzar
the kingdom, that is to say, he suffered him
to take it. Daniel, addressing Nebuchadnezzar, said:
“Thou . . . art a king of kings, for the God of heaven
hath given thee [the] kingdom.” (Dan. 2 : 37)
That does not mean that God had made Nebuchadnezzar
his representative in the earth ; but by reason
of what God did to Israel he made Nebuchadnezzar
king of the Israelites.
There is no reason to believe that Nebuchadnezzar
knew he was serving God’s purposes ; but that did not
preclude him from being so used. Any creature whom
the Lord uses in his service, even if that creature be
an ass, is his servant. (Num. 22: 28-30) God could
have caused even the very stones to do his service and
therefore to be his servant. (Luke 19 : 10) Nebuchadnezzar
the king of Babylon stood, as it were, at the
forks of the road, considering whether he should take
the road that led him to Ammon, and smite first the

284 VINDICATION EZEK. 21
Ammonites, or should take the other road and smite
first Judah and Jerusalem. God intervened and so
controlled the affairs of Nebuchadnezzar that Nebuchadnezzar
chose to go to Jerusalem and did go and
smite it first. In thus controlling the action of Nebuchadnezzar
Jehovah said to Ezekiel : “Choose thou a
place . . . at the head of the way to the city [Jeru-
salem]. ” “And a hand engrave thou, at the head of
the way to the city engrave it.” (Roth.) (21: 19)
Just as though one would place a signboard with an
index finger there at the fork of the road, the finger
pointing a certain way, in like manner the Lord directed
that Nebuchadnezzar go to Jerusalem. Jerusalem
was more reprehensible before God, and he directed
the assault with the sword to be made there
first.
Then the prophecy discloses a picture of Nebuchadnezzar
appealing to an unseen power, which meant,
of course, to the Devil and his angels, “For the king
of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the
head of the two ways [at the fork of the road] to use
divination [to appeal to his deity, Satan] : he made
his arrows bright, he consulted with images [teraphim,
or idols], he looked in the liver. ” As Nebuchadnezzar
stood there facing the south, “at his right
hand was the divination for Jerusalem.” (21: 22)
While he consulted his various signs, Jehovah overruled
the omens or signs so that God’s will would be
accomplished upon Jerusalem. Without doubt Jehovah
had his angel on the spot to see that Nebuchadnezzar
did as he wanted him to do. Jehovah called to
remembrance the iniquity of Jerusalem, and so

Ezek 21 RULERS 285
controlled the affairs of Nebuchadnezzar that the assault
was made upon it first.-21: 23.
Even so today: those of the Devil’s organization
call upon their deity, “the god of this [wicked]
world,” and consult mediums and idols to know what
they shall do ; but regardless thereof the will of Jehovah
shall be done against hypocritical “organized
Christianity”. It was Jehovah who brought punishment
upon Jerusalem, and it is Jehovah that will
bring a like punishment upon Christendom. In both
instances the instrument used is Jehovah’s servant,
but it does not at all follow that the first servant was
a “type” of the last.
Jerusalem had come to the full in wickedness, and
God caused Ezekiel to announce his decree against
her. Likewise, Christendom has come to the full in
wickedness, and God causes his anointed people, whom
Ezekiel foreshadowed, to announce his decree against
her : “Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Because ye
have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that
your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your
doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye
are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the
hand.” (21: 24) Thus Jehovah sets forth that it is
the measure of sinfulness and wickedness, in proportion
to light, that brings responsibility and that therefore
brings down upon the wicked his sword. In this
verse (24) Jehovah laid the charge against the Jews
at the beginning of the Gentile times; and with
stronger reasoning the charge applies to Christendom
since the close of the Gentile times and before bringing
upon Christendom the sword at Armageddon.
Zcdckiah was then the ruler in Jerusalem, and

286 VINDICATION EZEK 21
Zedekiah foreshadowed the exalted rulers in Christendom.
To such Jehovah says: “And thou, profane
wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when
iniquity shall have an end.” (21: 25) This applied,
of course, to Zedekiah; and its wider application is to
the exalted ones of Christendom who are lifted up,
haughty, austere, and who are “profane” [meaning
“death-deserving” (Leeser) ], lawless ones who assume
to be worthy to rule in God’s name and who
hypocritically claim to be God’s representatives on
the earth. Other renderings of the text are illuminating
: “Whose day hath come in a time of final iniquity”
(Roth.) ; “And thou, death-deserving wicked
one, prince of Israel, whose day is come, at the time
of the iniquity of the end.” (Leeser) This means that
the time has come when God will restrain evil, and
that time is marked by extreme wickedness in Christendom
; and now it must come to an end.
Jehovah then addresses his chief officer, saying:
“Thus saith the Lord God, Remove the diadem, and
take off the crown; this shall not be the same ; exalt
him that is low, and abase him that is high.” (21: 26)
Christ Jesus is the one who knocks the crowns off the
heads of the rulers of the world, and who takes away
all kingdom privileges from the unfaithful, and who
exalts the obedient ones who are faithful to their
covenant, This work began with the coming of the
Lord to his temple for judgment, in 1918. The fall
of Zedekiah marked the end of the Jewish nation. The
fall of Christendom will mark the end of hypocritical
‘ ‘ organized religion ’ ‘.
Then with decided emphasis Jehovah announces:
“I will overturn, overturn, overturn it; and it shall

EZEK. 21 RULERS 287
be no more, until he come whose right it is ; and I
will give it him. ” (21: 27) The it means the crown,
or authority to rule. The rulers of Christendom assume
to wear it, the crown, and God will take it away
completely from Christendom and all other earthly
rulers. Christ is earth’s rightful King, and God has
placed him upon his holy hill in Zion. (Ps. 2: 6) The
kingdom of God is taken from Christendom and given
to the ‘<nation bringing forth the fruits thereof “, to
wit, Christ Jesus and his faithful body members, the
faithful servant of Jehovah. (Matt. 21: 43) “The
Lord lifteth up the meek ; he casteth the wicked down
to the ground.“--Ps. 147: 6.
Other renderings of verse twenty-seven disclose a
flexibility of phraseology of the text, making it apply
both in 1914 and at Armageddon. “Also this shall not
belong (to any one) until he come whose right. it is,
and I will give it him.” (Leeser) “Even this hath not
befallen until the coming of One to whom belongeth
the right, then will I bestow it.” (Roth.) This shows
that the prophecy applied at 1914, when the Lord
Jesus was then placed upon the throne, but applies
more particularly at the coming of the Lord Jesus to
the battle of Armageddon. Then the crowns of Satan’s
organization will be thrown down, and the heads
broken. (Ps. 110: 6) There will then be no rival contender
for the crown, but it belongs to and will be
used exclusively by Christ Jesus.
Now earth’s rightful King has come, and three and
one-half years after his coming, to wit, in 1918, he
was presented as King and was rejected by Christendom
; and the next great act is the complete overthrow
and destruction of Christendom. Three times

288 VINDICATION EZEK. 21
the word “overthrown” or “overturn” is used, and
manifestly for the purpose of emphasis, as the words
“sword be doubled the third time” are used. Such
means the certain and complete destruction of Christendom
that it may rise no more.

14

Question: When did satan become ruler of the world according to JW?

by Pickled in

i asked this question on another thread about trees in eden but it may be off topic, so asking here instead.

according to wtbts doctrine, when did satan become the ruler of the world?

was it immediately after the humans were banished from the garden, or was it later when he fought with michael and was banished from heaven and sent to the earth?

Pickled

Leolaia, I am still reading and trying to figure out exactly when satan was made ruler of the earth. As I was reading I noticed that it is indicated that sometime around 1914 and 1918, all of Christendom became slated for destruction and stripped of their relationship they had with Jehovah. It seems the more I read the more questions I have.

Forget the part about the JW themselves not knowing in either 1914, 1918, or 1919 that Jesus was doing all of this...what about the judgment placed on "Christendom"? Is Rutherford really saying that millions and millions of people were slated for destruction because of what they believed AT THAT TIME when they ALSO had no idea that anything at all was happening during those years? Is this logic incorrect?....

1. C. T. Russell believed Christ returned in 1874.

2. C. T. Russell believed that he was the ONLY anointed person on earth. He was the "faithful and discrete slave" all by himself.

3. All of the JW agreed with him and their literature from that time reflects that agreement.

4. They were wrong and their literature admits this in several places including in the Proclaimer's book.

5. Even though they were teaching 48 different teachings that were wrong at the time and have backtracked....what they have NOT backtracked is the part where that is STILL the right time that "Christendom" or wrong thinking Christians on the earth received their appointment to be executed?

Why did Christians receive a death sentence during the same time that the WTBTS was appointed the "faithful and discrete slave" for dispensing the wrong teachings?

If those wrong teachings were retracted by the JW, then why wasn't "Christendom" given a break as well?

14

Question: When did satan become ruler of the world according to JW?

by Pickled in

i asked this question on another thread about trees in eden but it may be off topic, so asking here instead.

according to wtbts doctrine, when did satan become the ruler of the world?

was it immediately after the humans were banished from the garden, or was it later when he fought with michael and was banished from heaven and sent to the earth?

Pickled

Thank you Leolaia, looking that up now.

Sacolton, I think the JW believe that Michael fought with satan in 1914 and cast him out of heaven at that point. It was then that satan focused his anger over that excommunication onto the earth, and that is why WWI started in 1914. In addition, immediately after satan's expulsion Michael was seated on the throne as king of the kingdom. The book of Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible, and satan's challenge would have occurred, according to the JW, centuries before 1914.

My question would be Sacolton,...if Michael is the one who fought with satan and cast him out so that he could be enthroned as king, then why is it if Jesus and Michael are one and the same, do the JW still pray in the name of Jesus when petitioning the father? JW believe that Jesus went back to being the Archangel Michael when he ascended back to the Father. However, it is Jesus who was seated on the throne, as Jesus, and not one who is referred to as Michael. In addition, the book of revelation indicates that it is the voice of an archangel that announces the second coming, along with the voice of a trumpet. Did Jesus remain merely an Archangel even after Jehovah declared "today you are my son"? This is the order of events according to the JW...

1. satan an archangel (satan is not a proper name, the words satan and devil means tempter and opposer. The name Lucifer is not a proper name and is an error. The name Lucifer originated in changes made to the translation of the Bible from Latin to early English by Catholic translators. The words "Lucem Ferre" in Latin is "Day Star", "Morning Star", or "Bearer of Light." The words "Morning Star" are used in the Old and New Testaments. I believe one refers to the devil as the morning star, and one is in the book of Revelation in reference to Jesus as the "morning star." Since Jesus and the devil are not one and the same in the Bible, satan's name cannot be Lucifer.)

2. satan rebelled and was no longer an archangel.

3. Michael an archangel (The reason why I am using "an" archangel and not "the" archangel is because the scriptures indicate that Jesus' second coming is announced withe the voice of "an" archangel and not "the" archangel. However, even though the Bible does not indicate that there is only one single archangel, it also does not mention any of the others by name. had the names of the other archangels been mentioned it would have made it even more difficult to prove that Jesus and Michael are the same creature.)

4. Michael becomes Jesus on earth.

5. Jesus returns to heaven and becomes Michael again when he gets there.

6. Scriptures indicate that all are to pray in the name of the Father, and in the same of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit.

7. JW and all others decide that the name they will utter when praying to the Father will be Jesus and not Michael.

8. Jesus begins to have a presence on the earth again but in an invisible way in 1914. No one knows this, not even in 1914, until years later. So it was not only invisible, but undetectable for many years as well. It was invisible, silent, and basically without much of a stir at all. If the argument is made that it must have caused a stir because that is when 1914 began, that is an error in thinking if you happen to also believe that it was satan who was angry about being expelled that caused the stirring up in the form of WWI. Unless you also believe that Jesus was the one who started WWI instead of telling his followers he was present enough to start a war involving several continents.

9. Jesus is still back to Michael as evidenced in the archangel shouting, according to the JW, even though the Father indicates that he was given a different role altogether, that of Son and no longer simply an angel. So the archangel became King of the Kingdom but his name stayed the same, Michael. Even though God frequently changed people's names in the Bible, like Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul, and several others were named directly by an angel of God, including Jesus, indicating that the name of someone is extremely important because it denotes purpose or a change in the purpose or role of that person. The JW decided that even though messenger angels told Mary that his name is Jesus and that name must have been what God wanted it to be, and was important enough to send a messenger angel to convey that, it just reverted back to the name Michael that he had before his role changed, and before God changed his name too.

10. JW believe the name Jesus or Michael really isn't that important anyway because Jesus/Michael returns the Kingdom back to his Father in the end anyway. Basically, this Jesus/Michael person is a temp so call him what you want.

8

Deconstruction Video Parts I & II

by Pickled in

jw
friends

part i .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gezsqscgwzm&feature=related .

part ii .

Pickled

Part I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeZSQsCGwzM&feature=related

Part II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faNlN1zV2Vs&feature=related

If anyone knows how to post this as links, please do. Thanks.

14

No sacred trees in Eden - what would have happened?

by Awakened07 in

-this is a hypothetical "for the sake of argument"-topic, where we take for granted that the biblical story of adam and eve (as it is presented in the bible we have available today) is literally true.

i think it can be an interesting exercise.. now - let's for this discussion say god did not plant any 'special' tree in the garden of eden.

no tree of knowledge, and no tree of life.

Pickled

Please disregard the above question. I moved it over to the Beliefs and Doctrines threads as I think I was off topic here.

14

Question: When did satan become ruler of the world according to JW?

by Pickled in

i asked this question on another thread about trees in eden but it may be off topic, so asking here instead.

according to wtbts doctrine, when did satan become the ruler of the world?

was it immediately after the humans were banished from the garden, or was it later when he fought with michael and was banished from heaven and sent to the earth?

Pickled

Thanks Oompa, I look forward to that answer.

14

Question: When did satan become ruler of the world according to JW?

by Pickled in

i asked this question on another thread about trees in eden but it may be off topic, so asking here instead.

according to wtbts doctrine, when did satan become the ruler of the world?

was it immediately after the humans were banished from the garden, or was it later when he fought with michael and was banished from heaven and sent to the earth?

Pickled

Thank you again. Ok, so God still rules or governs among the faithful, but does not intervene in the lives of the unfaithful? BTW, I do not have answers already in mind and am not trying to lead you. I really am not sure of the answers, and appreciate your input.

If the answer is yes, he intervenes with the faithful, or only rules over the faithful only, and that leaves the unfaithful for satan to govern, then was the reason for the flood to help the faithful (Noah and his family)by removing the unfaithful?

14

Question: When did satan become ruler of the world according to JW?

by Pickled in

i asked this question on another thread about trees in eden but it may be off topic, so asking here instead.

according to wtbts doctrine, when did satan become the ruler of the world?

was it immediately after the humans were banished from the garden, or was it later when he fought with michael and was banished from heaven and sent to the earth?

Pickled

quietlyleaving, as an example of what I am asking about...

If satan was the ruler of the world when humans were banished, it is obvious that he was not given the total decision making power concerning the world or God would not have decided to destroy all but 8 of them not long after the garden incident, correct? But he obviously did intervene, so that is one example that illustrates what I am asking. What were the guidelines or boundaries of ruling authority among God and satan?

14

Question: When did satan become ruler of the world according to JW?

by Pickled in

i asked this question on another thread about trees in eden but it may be off topic, so asking here instead.

according to wtbts doctrine, when did satan become the ruler of the world?

was it immediately after the humans were banished from the garden, or was it later when he fought with michael and was banished from heaven and sent to the earth?

Pickled

Thank you for responding quietlyleaving. Would you mind answering a couple more questions?

Is it true that the current belief of the JW is that God has allowed satan to govern since that time?

Also, what is the belief concerning the guidelines God established for how much he does or does not interfere/intervene in the affairs of man since satan is the recognized ruler?

What I am trying to understand are the terms of who governs/intervenes/interferes, the when and the why according to JW.