Posts by Stuartmc

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

Reniaa. Your message was right on the money.

"Ask yourself one question....Can you love her if she stays a witness?"

Our relationship has deepened tremendously in the last few months. We are very much in love and its a wonderful thing. We have talked very openly about our common ground and our differences. She knows that I will not convert and that I can love and accept her just as she is. She has done the same with me. We both know how important unconditional love is.

I've done my homework, including purchasing and reading Crisis of Conscience. Being a lawyer and past seminarian, I know that I can win the battle of wits and tie her and her elders up in scriptural knots. But, in recent years I've learned a better way (the other way won't work and just builds animosity and strife) and that is the way of Love. The best I can do is to represent and give forth the Father's love - and that is a gentle, humble and non-judgmental love. If I can abide in that Love and give it to her and her brothers and sisters that I meet from the Kingdom Hall, then I can relax and know that the rest is in God's hands.

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

I just finished reading "Crisis of Conscience." All I can say is "WOW!",

This was beautifully written. You can feel the man's anguish and pain over all of this. How could anyone who reads this not come away with a strong conviction that the "organization" is not speaking for Jehovah.

My question now is: Since this was written, has anything really changed with WTBTS? Are they more, or less dogmatic now? Are they still clinging to 1914 and the "generation?" I would appreciate anyones thoughts on this.

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

Hi jgnat, First off, sorry about the typo of sewing vs. sowing.... geesh, I would have gotten a weird mental image too.

I agree about avoiding an "in depth" discussion of the "Trinity", because that is a mystery that we Christians still grapple with. She has however mentioned to me that it is "not in the bible" so JW's don't believe it. Since this was one of the first doctrinal points she mentioned to me, I tried to give her a simple explanation of why the word "trinity" does not appear in the bible and where the concept came from.

Essentially, this is what I shared with her. It is an attempt to describe the nature of God when confronted with some very interesting, and seemingly contradictory scriptures about who is the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. Rather than cherry pick one or a few scriptures that might portray them in one particular light, the church fathers in the fourth century tried to find a harmony of the scriptures by describing the one true God as having three distinct characters. They acknowledged then this was a feeble attempt to describe God's character by human words and understanding and that it was a "great mystery" of the faith. It still is today.

I shared with her the concept of the trinity that an old saint in my church once told me. He told me that we know from the bible that God is Love. Not just that He loves us, but that he is inherently Love. He didn't need to create us in order to have Love. He wasn't missing Love with a need to be fulfilled through our creation. No, before time as we know it, He WAS Love. How can this be? Who did he love? Did He love himself? Yes, in that mysterious way, He did love himself because we believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit co-existed in perfect harmony and love before the world began.

It is a very difficult concept to grasp and some people and religions, rather than struggling with the mystery and accepting that perhaps the human mind is not expansive enough to truly know the nature/ character of God, choose to focus only on those scriptures that make God more like us and therefore more understandable.

Lastly, in another feeble attempt which anthropomorphizes God. I tried to apply the concept to myself. If I were to truly love you and make you my wife, I would undoubtedly have three very unique "kinds" of love existing in me and acting upon you. They would be: Agape (Godly/Spiritual) love; Philos (brotherly/friendship) love; and Eros (erotic/passionate) love. At different times you would see the different loves manifested. At times, if you didn't know better, you would think by my actions that only one kind of love was in play. For instance, when having passionate sex with you as my wife, you might think I was all about Eros. But yet, you know that the Agape and Philos are still there inextricably intertwined in the one Stuart that Loves you. Yeah, I know, it certainly is a flawed analogy, but nothing can truly describe the mystery of the Trinity either.

You never know. Perhaps this might help someone else understand or at least appreciate the concept us Trinitarians grapple with.

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

You folks are awesome. Thanks Sirona and Primitivegenius for your very good points. I haven't mapped out her new faith for her. Of course I would like her to have a saving faith in the Lord Jesus, not the archangel Michael, but I know that I can only pray for her and sew some seeds. At this point, I think my mission would be accomplished if I can open her eyes to what is really going on with WTS and she can make her own informed decision on disassociating. Fortunately, my church is very missions active. In fact I told her last night when I got back from a small fellowship group meeting that I was leading the discussion and prayer because my pastor and a group from the church were in Brazil traveling up the Amazon for their second missions trip this year. We don't have a lot of symbolism and the service style and music is casual contemporary, so... she might tolerate it quite well if she visits.

I'm certainly not interested in dating someone to "score" (ha, ha, I like your style primitive genius) I'm definitely looking for long term, but marriage is not likely without getting some of these issues resolved. Even if married, having a child with her would be completely out of the question, unless she was permanently out of the JW's. You all have helped me refine and strengthen my position on this and for that I am very grateful.

The orders of the day are patience and caution. I will try to keep my heart from running too far in front of my head.

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

Hi there Aquamarine. My JW gal is visiting her family in Florida right now. Her family wants her to move there with her kids, but she really doesn't want to because she knows that they will try to control too much of her life. We've been talking and text messaging and I told her about this site and that I am getting some good insights here. When she returns home this weekend, she is planning on bringing her kids up for a day with me at the local ski area. I'll see how that goes and how many questions the kids have for me. It will be interesting to see how the kids react to a non-JW man who is friends with mom.

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

I'm very grateful to have found this forum. You folks are quite a resource. There were a few questions put to me that I'd like to respond to. I apologize for not remembering or addressing the specific folks that asked.

I was asked the question of why, being a lawyer and an in shape one at that, I would "settle" for a woman with some obvious issues when there should be other good prospects available. Well, you're right about the prospects. I have lots of female friends and acquaintances, who would be interested in a relationship with me. Their ages range from mid 20's to mid 40's, but none have had that special spark, or chemistry that has made me want to go further. I didn't seek this JW woman out. I didn't "try" to make this happen. It's just one of those interesting things that fell in my lap. I would say "chance," but being a person of faith and having much prayer and support from my family and church, I don't think there was all that much chance involved. She just happens to have the personality and "chemistry" that really does it for me and even if I don't end up being her "man", I will still be her friend. She has several good female friends that are not JW's, but none are knowledgeable persons of faith, so I think she could use one. She already has one foot out of the JW door and maybe, just maybe, God knows what she needs to get the other foot out.

Did I come here for advice or validation? That was a good point and the answer is advice. I don't need to be validated. I always do my homework before I dive into anything. I will make my own decision on where I will go with this relationship, but I want it to be an "informed" decision.

For those that say "flee, "run," "run away"...I keep thinking of Monty Pythons Holy Grail. So maybe I need to brake out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch... "And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three..." Sorry, just thought we need a little levity. I know there aren't many happy endings in these matters and many of you have had very difficult and heart wrenching experiences. You may be right. Running away now sure would be easy for me. Since the relationship is very new, it wouldn't take me more than a few weeks to get over it. But what of her? If I don't answer the call to show her that there are good men who love God that don't need or want the so called WTS Truth, she may spend the rest of her life struggling with that one foot left in. You see, my decision will be based not only on the reality of the difficulties and the prospects of me making a difference (the information you folks are helping me with), but also on a conviction, after much prayer, that this is what the Lord wants me to do.

Thanks for the input on Franz's "Crisis of Conscience." I have ordered the book and I look forward to reading it before I give it to my JW girl.

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

Good suggestion (Missinglink) She doesn't have a computer with internet access, but that will be rectified soon. I am going to suggest that she check out this forum.

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

Thanks one and all for the excellent input. I have learned more about my gal and thought it might shed more light on this subject. She was disfellowshipped twice relating to relationships she has had with non-JW's. She has been married twice. One when she was only 18 and the second was plagued with physical abuse and ended with a final divorce decree six months ago. Both men were not JW's. She told me the elders had a problem with her because she insisted that her relationships were none of their business and they can't control who she falls in love with. Hmmm... sounds like a pretty independent minded JW girl to me.

We have talked a lot more about doctrinal differences and she is willing to hear me out and has expressed genuine curiosity in examining the scriptural basis for my position. The lights went on when I pointed out the absurdity of a religious group formed in the 1900's claiming that they alone have the truth and all other "christians" are wrong. I asked her what Jehovah had been doing for the hundreds of years before- was HE not capable of preserving His truth and his believers all that time? She told me that she thought there were a lot of good people in other faiths and she rejected the idea that these people who love God, like me, would be destroyed. She was a little harsh on Catholics because of all of the scandals with pedophile priests. I then pointed out the JW settlement of a case involving similar child abuses by JW Elders and the NBC show on the subject. She had no idea (of course) and was quite surprised. I tell her these things with gentleness and love, pointing out that there are undoubtedly some bad apples in every faith.

I may be slightly delusional because she is such a great gal and I have such strong feelings for her, but I really think I can make a difference in this woman's life. She has never had a spirit filled believer as a friend or paramour. Apparently, she has already refused to drink all of the JW Koolaid and she has said that she's not afraid of being disfellowshipped again, if the Elders are upset that she is dating Mr. Kryptonite.

I've been praying about this a lot lately and I think with love and patience, I might be able to help her break free from the JW bonds.

51

Hardcore evangelical intellectual just fell for an enlightened JW girl

by Stuartmc in

i'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here.

i like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks.

here goes- i'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years.

Stuartmc

I'm new here, but am mightily impressed with the insights, care and compassion exhibited here. I like to briefly share my story and receive some insights and "good counsel" from you good folks. Here goes- I'm a 49 year old lawyer, whose been divorced for 8 years. Two kids in their late teens. One in college and the other lives locally with his mom. I'm a gym nut and very active, so most people think I'm in my 30's. I'm a born again Christian, having been saved in 1977. I went to a Christian liberal arts college, worked in the prison ministry with Chuck Colson in Washington, DC and had studied at the Holy Land Institute in Jerusalem. I had studied comparitive religion, and did a lot of research on cult groups back in the day. Yes, one of the groups I was quite familiar with were JW's. It's been many years since those days, but I'm still fairly conversant in the JW church doctrines.

I recently met a 37 year old woman, who just plain knocks me out. We start to talk about spiritual things (as I frequently do)and I'm mightily impressed by her words and her very evident love of God. DANGER,DANGER, WILL ROBINSON...not only is she gorgeous, smart and a very fun person, but whoowhoo! she's a believer too! Then I hear the dreaded words "Kingdom Hall" and my heart sinks. We continued to spend time together - enough to know that I could seriously fall for this lady and she for me. I decided to take the bull by the horns and talked to her point blank about JW's. She was quite surprised that I knew all about the lingo and doctrines. I was completely honest about my position and let her know in no uncertain terms that at least one JW I know refers to me as "Kryptonite." She told me that she was married before to a non-JW and that she had been disfellowshipped twice. She still goes to meetings at least three times a week with her two teen aged children and feels that it is a great influence on them. Her family, who live several states away, have been JW's ever since she was a child. They are apparently much more ardent about following all the rules than she is. She was apparently the "wild child" for a number of years, but has now come back to the fold. She has not been a pioneer and has done no door to door missions work since she was a young teen. We talked about birthdays and holidays and she didn't seem to have a problem with my recognizing and enjoying them. Her best friend is a Catholic girl and in fact I met My JW girl when she was visiting with this best friend in my home town (her home is about an hour from me. They were out on her birthday and she didn't hesitate to tell me it was her birthday. She still gets and reads all the Watchtower Society material and she does espouse all the standard JW doctrine.

OK, sorry for the novella. My question is this - Did I luck out and dodge the bullet this time? Could she be one of the rare, truly enlightened JW's who can accept me and my faith, knowing what I know? Should I still be skeptical even though I have told her that I won't aggressively try to convert her and that she should suffer no delusions that I might change my mind on JW doctrines?