Dear questioningmyfaith,
RE your “perspective” :
What evidence redirects your “path” toward “atheism / agnosticism” ?
telemetry11
JoinedPosts by telemetry11
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75
Lurker trying to gain clarity
by questioningmyfaith inhello all, i would like to first say that i am basically questioning my faith in god.
i am not negative towards the wt at all.
so honestly i am to concerned with more ad hominem attacks towards the wt because i still love the organization and the people in it.
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91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
The greatness of science must be that it rests on facts, not on opinion.
It is just the opposite in cantleave-world: “Penrose's statistics are meaningless .. His calculations didn't take the multiverse theory into account…” In cantleave-science, opinion trumps fact.
Fundamentally, multiverse theory relies on string theory, which is as yet unverified, and on speculative mechanisms for realizing different physics in different sister universes. (Nature, Scientific method: Defend the integrity of physics, George Ellis & Joe Silk, 16 December 2014) Multiverse theory is not robust, let alone testable.
A scientific theory—the string theory/multiverse— that makes no predictions and therefore is not subject to experiment can never fail, but such a theory can never succeed either, as long as science stands for knowledge gained from rational argument borne out by evidence. There needs to be an honest evaluation of the wisdom of sticking to a research program that has failed after decades to find grounding in either experimental results or precise mathematical formulation.
In cantleave-world, the incredible precision in the organization of the initial universe—objective, tested, verified fact—is “meaningless” because Penrose didn’t account for multiverse theory. Bizarro.
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91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
The greatness of science must be that it rests on facts, not on opinion.
________
“In the beginning”--The physics for life
Life’s genesis began with the incredible precision in the organization of the initial universe.
An environment suitable for life, some 13.8 billion years in development, was the result of the very, very, special organization of things at the moment of the big bang.
How very, very, special was it?
Roger Penrose quantified the precision needed in the conditions and energy distributions at the moment of the big bang to have eventually produced an environment suitable for life.
The odds of that special initial state coming about by chance is less than 1 chance in 10^10^123. -
91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
cofty,
You: "Tele you are making the assumption that life began with protein molecules."
Wrong again. I assume no such thing.
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91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
Cofty, No matter; just curious.
Did life emerge on its own or not? What is the tested reality?
My thanks to Cofty for this review of argument incorporating the cytochrome c family of proteins.
And for his unusually lucid-- “I didn't object to your assertion that there were 500 amino acids in the primordial soup".
What is the probability that one functional cytochrome c protein sequence emerged on its own from the primordial soup?
By the numbers:
100 amino acids in the cytochrome c sequence.
500 amino acids in the primordial soup.
So we have 500^100 or 10^269 possible sequences.
Now suppose there are 10^93 possible functional cytochrome c protein sequences.
There is 1 chance in 10^176 that a functional cytochrome c sequence emerged on its own from the primordial soup.
Of course one functional protein is not alive. But, if cytochrome c could have beat the odds, there it was ready to transport some electrons in the fundamental metabolic process of oxidative phosphorylation. Too bad the rest of the team didn’t make it.
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91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
Cofty,
You say: I didn't object to your assertion that there were "500 amino acids in the primordial soup".
Great! You have no objections to “500 amino acids in the primordial soup.”
So when you say, “Stop throwing around big numbers …”, to what numbers are you objecting?
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91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
RE your “Why wait for someone else to endorse the video?”
I have several comments on “the video”. D & C’s endorsement or failure to endorse helps narrow my options.
Since their failure is evident I returned to comment on the video. However …
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As if Cofty can’t produce the evidence to support his objection to “500 amino acids in the primordial soup”, you jump in with your own version of Cofty’s false opinion, “you are missing the point.”
The point: Did life emerge on its own or not? What is the tested reality?
On point, which one is your best, your strongest argument-- “It doesn't matter …. peptides and proteins.” OR the video?
Pick your best and I’ll be there post-haste.
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91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
Cofty,
You: “You totally missed my point.”
Wrong again. Your point was neither “missed” nor “ignored.” Your point, “common ancestry“, is “totally” off-point; already noted.
Did life emerge on its own or not? What is the tested reality?
The, “500 amino acids in the primordial soup.” did not originate as you declare.
In fact: “The majority of the 500 or so naturally occurring amino acids known today were discovered during the last 30 years,” --Wagner I, Musso H (November 1983). "New Naturally Occurring Amino Acids". Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. Engl. 22 (22): 816–828. doi:10.1002/anie.198308161.
Regardless, you claim: “What if we begin with self replication consisting of 4 bases? The [sic] we only have 20 amino acids and lots of redundancy in the sequences.”Show us the evidence that in Earth’s primordial oceans, after millions of years, there were no more than 20 different amino acids.
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BTW, Cool new avatar
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91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
cantleave,
If both Doltologist and Cofty endorse your video's points, I will comment. -
91
Proof - of what?
by Doltologist ina few weeks ago, these two jovies turned up on my doorstep.
being in a good mood that particular day, i told them that if they could prove that god existed, i'd become a jovie - and i meant every word.. they gave me two documents which they asked me read and told me that they'd be back in a week.
the first was called "was life created?
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telemetry11
My thanks to Cofty for this review of argument incorporating the cytochrome c family of proteins.
Did life emerge on its own or not? What is the tested reality?
Modern biochemistry has shown that any “cooperative self-replicating system” (including any hypothetical protobiont) is (or would have been) operated by teams of molecular machines—PROTEINS. Proteins are the machines within living things that build the structures and carry out the chemical reactions necessary for life.
Cytochrome c, for example, is absolutely essential for life - organisms that lack it cannot live. The mitochondria of cells contain cytochrome c, where it transports electrons in the fundamental metabolic process of oxidative phosphorylation. Oxygen is used to generate energy in this process.
Only about a third of the 100 amino acids in cytochrome c are necessary to specify its function. Hubert Yockey has done a careful study in which he calculated that there are a minimum of 2.3 x 10^93 possible functional cytochrome c protein sequences
What is the probability that one functional cytochrome c protein sequence emerged on its own from the primordial soup?
By the numbers:
100 amino acids in the cytochrome c sequence.
500 amino acids in the primordial soup.
So we have 500^100 or 10^269 possible sequences.
Now suppose there are 10^93 possible functional cytochrome c protein sequences.
There is 1 chance in 10^176 that a functional cytochrome c sequence emerged on its own from the primordial soup.
Of course one functional protein is not alive. But, if cytochrome c could have beat the odds, there it was ready to transport some electrons in the fundamental metabolic process of oxidative phosphorylation. Too bad the rest of the team didn’t make it.
________
Did life emerge on its own or not? What is the tested reality?
What is the probability that the Big Bang eventually produced an environment suitable for life?
Next week.