so far, i like needful things, secret window/hidden garden, and langoliers best.. guy at the bookstore said the stand was the best.. i just bought the shining and pet cemetary (book's in the other room.
can't spell).
what's your favorite?.
I just picked up "The dark side" at a garage sale.....
You bought a Stephen King book at a garage sale? Wow you're brave! Might as well put out a welcome sign for the demons!
Seriously, though, I enjoyed The Dark Tower series, and I loved "On Writing". I haven't read much else from his, although I've heard that "The Stand" is widely considered to be his masterpiece.
where to start?.
i thought about typing out a nutshelled life history but changed my mind.
suffice it to say, i was born into "the truth," attempted suicide at 14, "lost my faith" at this time, beat into submission into carrying on as usual, endured a horrible marriage and equally horrible divorce, and am more or less still in it (appearances only!
Welcome! I can definitely relate to much of what you said. Remember, you have the right to your own decisions. I can appreciate not wanting to unduly hurt your parents, but honestly, are you willing to live a lfe of enslavement to prevent it? Although they surely don't consider it as such, raising you the way they did is a form of child abuse, and you are continuing to let it happen. Put an end to it.
Wow, I don't know where I was for this thread. I missed the whole thing because I assumed it was a thread about why atheists should return to theism. My mistake. I enjoyed B_Deserter's essay thoroughly. I haven't read all eight pages, but I did read Alvin Plantinga's article on page one. At first glance, I groaned, but then I felt bad for my knee jerk reaction and tried to give it an honest assessment, trying to find the important arguments made. After all, he is:
"the most important philosopher of religion now writing."
All I can say is, wow, my initial reaction was correct. Calling someone "the most important philosopher of religion" is like calling someone "the most important philosopher of my little ponies." If anything my initial gut reaction was too kind. That this guy is taken seriously is evidence of just how desperate religious people are to have someone, anyone, to point to as an intellectual on their side. He made no points, but boy did he use some phillosophical sounding words! It's like watching a chimp in a lab coat. "Isn't that cute?! He almost looks like a real scientist!" Burn, I'm surprised at you. I honestly thought more of you than this.
while this may be construed as a rebuttal to nvr's thread re: why i post about atheism, that is not my intent.. it is my intent, however, to show how i developed a belief in and love for the god of the bible.. my paternal grandfather, who died before i was born, was a baptist preacher, so you could say i cut my teeth on the bible.
i loved having it read to me, and once i learned how, reading it for myself.
i'm convinced that spirituality runs deep in my blood.. i've always had such a strong sense of right and wrong that injustices make me literally sick.
Haven't had time to read through this whole thread yet, I'm on my way out, but I just wanted to comment on this:
There are no commuting of sentences, no payoffs, no unlawful flights to avoid prosecution or any such shenanigans in this case. God has remained true to His Word throughout the millenia since He first pronounced the Death Sentence on the human race.
I'm going to let you in on a secret. I am god, and to prove it, I will reveal some wisdom to you: the sun will rise tomorrow. When you wake up tomorrow and realize that, no matter how much effort you put forth to stop it the sun did in fact come up, you will know that the one true god replied to your thread. PM me if you'd like to know what form of worship I require.
oftentimes the accusation is made that there is some sort of conspiracy on jwd amongst the atheists to convert, humiliate, spit on, or otherwise degrade the believers.
it's been suggested that their tone is condescending and arrogant.. it's hinted at that they're angry and bitter about their own lives and want to take it out on god and his humble servants.. others think it's all just an excuse to lead what they judge to be a morally depraved life.. regardless of what we believe about god's existence or lack thereof, most rational adults understand that when we attempt to judge the motives of others we can miss by a mile.. so here's the reason i post about the topic of atheism.... i was born as one of jehovah's witnesses, fourth generation.
i was being indoctrinated with jehovah while i was still in the womb.
Where does your sense of a "positive outcome" come from? From the examples you gave, you see destruction as "bad". Like me, you view anything that harms the innocent as "bad". There is something in your soul that calls out for justice, for "good". Where does that feeling come from? It's not rational.
Why would you say it isn't rational? There is plenty of evidence for why people behave in such ways. Richard Dawkins' book "The Selfish Gene" goes into much detail about the evolutionary reason for such behavior. Others since have done a lot of good science that has gone a long way towards explaining this. It is largely our desire for justice that has made society as a whole, including religious people, go against the god of the bible as regards murdering disobedient children, slavery, murdering adulterous women, etc. etc. etc. Thank Vishnu societies' morals don't come from that maniac.
oftentimes the accusation is made that there is some sort of conspiracy on jwd amongst the atheists to convert, humiliate, spit on, or otherwise degrade the believers.
it's been suggested that their tone is condescending and arrogant.. it's hinted at that they're angry and bitter about their own lives and want to take it out on god and his humble servants.. others think it's all just an excuse to lead what they judge to be a morally depraved life.. regardless of what we believe about god's existence or lack thereof, most rational adults understand that when we attempt to judge the motives of others we can miss by a mile.. so here's the reason i post about the topic of atheism.... i was born as one of jehovah's witnesses, fourth generation.
i was being indoctrinated with jehovah while i was still in the womb.
I see no point in the entire debate to be honest.
Jeff, if everyone were, as you appear to be, agnostic, then I would be inclined to agree with you. But as long as there are parents that would rather their children die then give their children a blood transfusion because they believe this is god's will, then there is a point. As long as their are those that believe flying a packed airliner into a building will grant them the blessings of Allah, there is a point. As long as Ben Stein makes propagandistic movies to convince educators to teach myths instead of science, there is a point. I would be thrilled if the debate were only between whether it is more rational to call yourself an atheist or an agnostic, which is largely an argument of semantics. That is not the debate society is having.
oftentimes the accusation is made that there is some sort of conspiracy on jwd amongst the atheists to convert, humiliate, spit on, or otherwise degrade the believers.
it's been suggested that their tone is condescending and arrogant.. it's hinted at that they're angry and bitter about their own lives and want to take it out on god and his humble servants.. others think it's all just an excuse to lead what they judge to be a morally depraved life.. regardless of what we believe about god's existence or lack thereof, most rational adults understand that when we attempt to judge the motives of others we can miss by a mile.. so here's the reason i post about the topic of atheism.... i was born as one of jehovah's witnesses, fourth generation.
i was being indoctrinated with jehovah while i was still in the womb.
Well put, cog. I say this as often as I can when discussing atheism. In fact, I said it in my first post in this thread:
Do I believe there is proof that god doesn't exist? Of course not. No one sane does. Granting that, if it makes you more comfortable, you may call me an agnostic. But I am agnostic to god only in the same respect that I am agnostic to fairies in my back yard that only materialize when no one is watching. Can I disprove that? No. Do I think it likely...
For some reason, many believers don't like to acknowledge this fact. I think because it is much easier to set up the straw man that atheists believe they can prove that there is no god. This is of course ridiculous, and they can proceed to tear apart how ridiculous it is to believe you can prove a negative, which of course no reasonable atheist has ever claimed to be able to do.
The fact is that a rational person requires evidence for belief. The lack of evidence for god leads to a lack of belief in god. A lack of belief in god is atheism. Period.
oftentimes the accusation is made that there is some sort of conspiracy on jwd amongst the atheists to convert, humiliate, spit on, or otherwise degrade the believers.
it's been suggested that their tone is condescending and arrogant.. it's hinted at that they're angry and bitter about their own lives and want to take it out on god and his humble servants.. others think it's all just an excuse to lead what they judge to be a morally depraved life.. regardless of what we believe about god's existence or lack thereof, most rational adults understand that when we attempt to judge the motives of others we can miss by a mile.. so here's the reason i post about the topic of atheism.... i was born as one of jehovah's witnesses, fourth generation.
i was being indoctrinated with jehovah while i was still in the womb.
Since there is no 'faith' to defend, according to many, why are attacks poised when flaws are suggested, as if one's religion is under attack? Just asking. Some comments just bark 'religious intolerance' while insisting that no religious nature is attached to atheism. Just saying.
People with strong reasons for belief tend to defend those beliefs passionately when attacked. This is common in religion, but it is also common in politics, art, and science. A passionate defense alone alone does not make it a religious perspective.
oftentimes the accusation is made that there is some sort of conspiracy on jwd amongst the atheists to convert, humiliate, spit on, or otherwise degrade the believers.
it's been suggested that their tone is condescending and arrogant.. it's hinted at that they're angry and bitter about their own lives and want to take it out on god and his humble servants.. others think it's all just an excuse to lead what they judge to be a morally depraved life.. regardless of what we believe about god's existence or lack thereof, most rational adults understand that when we attempt to judge the motives of others we can miss by a mile.. so here's the reason i post about the topic of atheism.... i was born as one of jehovah's witnesses, fourth generation.
i was being indoctrinated with jehovah while i was still in the womb.
Great thread. If I could add my own reasons -
Atheism for me was the result of a long journey. Along the way I came to realize that much of the bible was not supported by evidence that should have been there, such as the Exodus, the wars of the Israelites, and of course the utterly impossible and ridiculous global flood. Much of it is clearly rewrites of older stories that Christians today would consider pagan. Even many if not all of the supposed miracles of Jesus were copies of legends that were already common by the time Jesus was born, so much so that some biblical scholars, such as Bob Price, have said that Jesus did "nothing that was original to him". Eventually I came to accept that the bible is the work of man, full of all too human xenophobia, racism, sexism, class distinctions, and a blatantly wrong and ignorant view of the natural world.
So what is there to base belief in a god in without the bible? Would I have come to believe in a god if I hadn't grown up with religion? To put it another way, suppose for the sake of argument that you were born into a world where the man made bible, along with the other man made "holy" books, had never been written, but in which people had discovered all that we now know or have strong evidence for about the natural world: Common descent, the laws of nature, physics, the big bang, etc. Would you have any reason to postulate a magic all powerful invisible giant?
But religion is more than just wrong. It is detrimental to human development. There may have been a time when it served an important function, but that function has now been taken over by secular laws and science. Now it serves largely to keep people ignorant, to fight progress, and to make a virtue of self deception. Even worse, in many forms, it encourages and rewards murder, slavery, abuse of women, all the worst and most barbaric aspects of human nature. I do not believe religion in any form is worthy of respect. Religious individuals, yes. Some. But religion as an institution, absolutely not. I believe Sam Harris hit the nail on the head, that even religious moderates lay the groundwork and legitimize religious extremists.
Do I believe there is proof that god doesn't exist? Of course not. No one sane does. Granting that, if it makes you more comfortable, you may call me an agnostic. But I am agnostic to god only in the same respect that I am agnostic to fairies in my back yard that only materialize when no one is watching. Can I disprove that? No. Do I think it likely...
there has been some dramatic changes going on recently with the jws as everyone knows , i can only speculate this is due to the once well hidden secrets.
that have been hidden so well from the eyes of the faithful followers, the overwhelming information on the inter-net may be the cause of this.. perhaps the power and arrogance that the gb held for so many years is indeed starting to weaken.. i'm actually seeing the faith weakening within my own family members that have been involved with the organization for decades.. they do seem to be down sizing a lot in their operations, wouldn't it be surprisingly ironic if " the truth " was the thing that really was to bring down their structured lies.. well we can only wish, right !
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I honestly don't think there's anything they can do to stop the exodus of the younger generation. Accurate information is too easily obtained now. The ones that refuse to investigate will find out from friends, or their curiosity will be piqued as to why their friends are leaving. This will have a snowball effect. Any changes they make will only make them lose more credibility and hasten this effect. I've seen it time and time again. If I try to ask my friends about "new light" like the generation teaching or things like the bookstudy change, they look confused and dismayed, like they don't want to think about it. Their is a general sense of malaise, I think.
I think the older generation, on the other hand, will by and large cling to the org. till the end. They can't switch horses now, they've already bet their life savings on this one. And if they liberalize (not sure if that's a word) enough, they may eventually attract a new younger generation. I believe in fifty years their will still be a religion called Jehovah's Witnesses, as disturbing as that seems, but it will be almost unrecognizable to the group that bears that name today.
