I'm not sure if its a problem for others, but on my PC, in the post above, sentences are truncated by the adverts on the right. Let me know if so and I will try again.
Heather
Posts by HB
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14Time Machine
by HB incaveat 1: those who believe jesus is truly the son of god may wish to avoid this post.
although my thoughts are only proposed for mild amusement and interest and in no way intended to offend, for some, the concept behind the idea may be an affront to preciously held beliefs.
if that’s likely to be the case, kindly just don’t read.
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14
Time Machine
by HB incaveat 1: those who believe jesus is truly the son of god may wish to avoid this post.
although my thoughts are only proposed for mild amusement and interest and in no way intended to offend, for some, the concept behind the idea may be an affront to preciously held beliefs.
if that’s likely to be the case, kindly just don’t read.
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HB
- Caveat 1: Those who believe Jesus is truly the Son of God may wish to avoid this post. Although my thoughts are only proposed for mild amusement and interest and in no way intended to offend, for some, the concept behind the idea may be an affront to preciously held beliefs. If that’s likely to be the case, kindly just don’t read.
- Caveat 2. It's a given that this is merely a hypothetical ‘what if…?’ premise, and to the best of man’s current knowledge, not ever going to be feasible in practice. But I am curious to hear other’s comments, suggestions and answers to my theoretical questions.
Don’t take it seriously! Just forget reality and allow your mind to slip into flights of fancy in a fantasy scenario where your imagination and creativity can be given free reign.
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Imagine you have invented a high-tech time machine and you travel back to Judea arriving the year before Jesus’s crucifixion. On arrival, you hide your time machine in an unused cave not far from Jerusalem and change into the clothes you obtained from a costume hire company, hoping this will allow you to wander around relatively unnoticed, posing as a traveller from a faraway land.
You sling a couple of large cloth bags over your shoulders, containing items you have bought with you from the 21st century. You head into Jerusalem first to sell a few trinkets to rich merchants. They fall over themselves with eagerness to buy at exorbitant prices the brightly coloured items of costume jewellery made of plastic and cheap metal that that you bought in a discount store in your home town. This provides you with enough money to support yourself. Language is a problem, but having studied Latin and ancient Greek back home, you can get by with the odd word and sign language, and you will learn the native language as you go.
After exploring Jerusalem, you set off to travel through Judea and Samaria and then visit Nazareth, Capernaum, the Sea of Galilee, Bethsaida and other places.
In the course of your travels, you discover that there are a number of itinerant preachers in the region, some with a political agenda, others promoting philosophical ideas. You eventually come across what you have been looking for, a particularly charismatic individual named Jesus who is accompanied by a loyal band of followers.
Like many of the other preachers, this man portrays himself as a prophet, however his followers go much further and claim that not only does their master possess special knowledge, healing abilities and other supernatural powers, but controversially, he is the son of God and the promised Messiah sent by Yahweh to save Israel.
Some of the reports of alleged miracles attributed to this man align roughly with accounts in the New Testament, and the topics he preaches about are familiar. So you conclude that the biblical Jesus was indeed a historic character. (You are relieved to find that you made a correct guess as to which year to arrive here, as 21st century bible scholars disagree over the dates of Jesus’ ministry).
But after a few weeks following this Jesus around, listening to his sermons, observing so called ‘miracles’ and studying his personality closely, it is unquestionably clear to you that he is not all he seems. Although he is very clever, enigmatic, outwardly charming and personable, this is just a mask for a much more sinister character. He is in fact a psychopathic, narcissistic megalomaniac, obsessed with his own self-importance. He promotes himself as a compassionate, caring person, but he uses and discards people according to their usefulness to him. He is an exhibitionist and a hypocrite.
You observe that Jesus’ teachings are appealing and compelling, particularly to the downtrodden, the sick, the outcasts and the poor. He promises them a better life. They are attracted by his rebellion against authority and excited by his unorthodox, controversial and politically dangerous views. His promises may be untestable but they provide something to cling on to and a tentative hope for the future. So people are joining the cult in droves. But there is also a lot of ridicule and opposition and the authorities are deeply suspicious of Jesus’s motives and keeping close tabs on his power base.
You perceive that Jesus’s close friends are fully brainwashed and have no hesitation in telling blatant lies for the sake of good PR, to enhance their master’s ‘brand image’. They don’t hesitate to use trickery, bribery, cheating and false promises or any other dishonest means to impress and convince other folk that their master has incredible supernatural powers. All his followers are caught up in the deception except one, (Judas), who has awakened from the delusion and seen through the lies.
Jesus is an expert at mind control and crowd manipulation. He is exceptionally skilled at ‘magic’ tricks and his ‘miracles’ are usually particularly convincing, although it’s quite easy for you with the benefit of modern knowledge, to see how he pulls off the illusions. You learn that many of the biblical miracles did not in fact take place, but were merely fabricated propaganda spun into the future bible narrative to add credibility to the extraordinary claims of Jesus’s power and connection to the God figure.
You are painfully aware that if you intervene to distort the course of history, you can never go back to your own era. In fact you wouldn’t exist in the future if you change anything in the past. But nevertheless, you decide that, using 21st century knowledge and technology, you will set yourself up as a sage and prophet who can do ‘miracles’, and see if you can attract Jesus’s followers to be your followers instead.
However, you have no personality disorders or desire for power and control over others, so your plan is that if you succeed in gaining the attention of a group of followers, you will then publicly reveal the truth, and demonstrate that you have no magic powers or connections to a deity, and wish simply to expose Jesus for being a fraud. You can also pass on some useful knowledge to improve the lives of the people in the community in a practical way, for example teaching them about the role of germs and how to avoid infections.
You are aware that the Romans may try to arrest you for sorcery, and you are conscious that it could all go horribly wrong and you could potentially end up being a martyr yourself. The worst case scenario is that your more gullible followers, missing the crucial point, could ironically build a cult around your memory if you are killed. But you have tried to mitigate the possibility by hiding wax sealed envelopes in temples in all the cities, towns and villages you have visited. These contain texts written in Latin and ancient Greek (typed on a PC on modern photocopy paper!) and explain who you are and the facts of your mission. You also remind people of the dangers of seeking for truth in the words of men.
You hope that if it comes to it, and you are in danger, bribing soldiers with a few bottles of modern beer, some bags of crisps (potato chips) and lads mags might allow you to escape. A modern weapon is an obvious final resort if all else fails, but ideally not to be used.
And if you get a chance of an audience with the Governor of the Province, or even with the Emperor in Rome, a case of fine wine, Belgian chocolates and Nessun Dorma played on a IPod might well sway your case. (Or maybe try Mozart, Michael Jackson, Dolly Parton, Van Halen or the Rolling Stones!)
So all this leads to my questions:..
What items from the 21st century would you take with you to dazzle and astound the people of the 1st century?
What knowledge would you want to pass on to them?
And what do you think would happen next in the story….would you be revered or feared?
Assume your time machine is the size of a large car, so you can only bring limited items, (e.g. a bicycle would fit but not a military tank!) Batteries, or a small petrol generator could be brought with you, but remember there is no Wi-Fi, electricity or phone signal
Over to you and your imagination………
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Original Sin / Salvation without a literal Adam and Eve?
by Coded Logic insomething i've never understood is if adam and eve are just metaphorical where did "original sin" come from.
and, if there was no original sin, what is the value of jesus sacrifice?.
i know a lot of christians believe in evolution but i've never understood how such a belief is structured.
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HB
Hi TornApart,
I liked that you said: 'At the moment I'm open to all thoughts and ideas'.I understand that you are not yet sure what to believe and your post may be part of the process of deciding, but I'm interested in how you rationalise your thoughts at this point. I have read online that a number of Christians hold the view you posed as a question when you said:
Could 'Adam' and 'Eve' have been the change between animal like humans with no 'spiritual' side to humans who became 'in God's image' with a spiritual nature?
Just to ensure I am clear and understand the point, I have some genuine questions.
Are you saying that perhaps at some point in prehistory, in multiple locations, a specific generation of male and female 'apes' who had no soul, mated and gave birth to 'human' babies with a soul? (i.e. these babies were figurative 'Adams' and 'Eves' who were born sinful and whose descendants needed salvation?
Or did you mean that perhaps in one line of apes in the Hominidae family which God chose, the 'soul' gradually and invisibly grew over time in line with their physical and mental evolution, and when this soul was sufficiently evolved, individual apes 'became' human perhaps on reaching adulthood, and were then capable of sin? In this scenario, would you think that different populations of apes around the world would develop a 'spiritual side' at different times perhaps hundreds of years apart due to environmental factors, or do you see it that maybe God activated 'souls' all at once on a certain day, all over the world?
Or do you have in mind some other way that humans "became 'in God's image'"?
Do you think that the first humans with a soul were aware that they potentially had a chance for eternal life but their ape parents and grandparents did not? And would the parents be aware that their offspring was somehow different to them?
How do Neanderthals and other species of the genus Homo fit in with this idea?
I realise you cannot give a definitive answer to these questions, but I'm interested in your current thought processes.
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Results of an international survey - Love, Health, Money, Power etc, what do you most want in life?
by HB insome of you might be interested in the results of a 'yougov' survey into peoples aims in life.
see: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/23/wants/.
over 18,000 people in 17 countries were asked to think about their lives and to say which of 12 key areas they most want in life and which single one they want most overall.
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HB
Sowhatnow, thanks for your thoughts. I would also love to live in a world where money was unimportant, but as you said, sadly it's necessary for so many other things we want. And I agree that dependable friends should have been on the list. I really hope you find love soon!
Vidiot your answer made me smile. When my children were small, I used to tell them a bedtime story about a magic dreamland that the fairies would take them to if they kept their eyes closed. In this place it was always sunny and warm and they would find all the toys they wanted there for them to play with. (At that point i would pause to allow them to say what they would like to play with that night).
Ditto all their favourite food and drink. (No Brussel's sprouts, just chocolate, icecream, cake and sweets). You could only stay there till just before morning when the fairies made a rainbow and you slid down it back into your bed.
Not being a JW, I had never heard of Paradise, but my version was much more fun than the Watchtower's and at least my children knew it was just pretend!
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23
Non JW friends don't understand
by kozmo init never ceases to amaze me that your personal friends have no clue what it is like to have been one.
i was speaking with a friend the other day about having been a jw.
she said, oh i have a dear friend of 30 years who is one and she is so nice!
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HB
Just to say that although I guess I'm quite rare, I'm at least one outsider who has made a huge effort to properly understand and empathise.
I've never been a JW, never been in a Kingdom Hall, never had any family members in the Organisation, and yet I believe I now really do understand, as much as it's humanly possible to do so, what you have all suffered in different ways and what the cult is al about.
I have made it my business over the past 7 years to comprehend the effects of JW lifestyle and empathise with all of you. I have put a huge amount of time and effort into learning the Watchtower history and all the JW teachings like 607, the overlapping generations and the failed prophesies. I have attended three 'apostafests' and chatted with many exJWs to understand their stories.
Most of all, I have befriended someone from the forum (he doesn't now post), who has been through a lot and he has taught me so much. We have now become lifelong friends.
It sometimes breaks my heart to read the life stories of former JWs, but I've observed that even those who haven't suffered major traumas as a JW, are invariably left with some kind of negative after effects. Some have depression, some suffer PTSD, some can't rid themselves of fear or guilt, some have social anxiety and some just feel like misfits, the list goes on. I just wish I could befriend and support everyone!
I read this forum more or less every day, but I post very rarely. I'm not well known so people mostly pass over any comments I make but it's not a problem. I have been observing from the side-lines as all the various changes have been made. I watched all the ARC hearings, I've read many Watchtower articles, books videos and regularly grimaced through the travesty that is JWTV.
People ask me why I bother. I'm fortunate to be a happy, healthy, balanced, normal everyday person with a husband and close family, a great social life and no issues or problems in my life. My family and friends think it's a bit of an eccentric hobby. But I was compelled to get involved because of what I saw.
I joined the site for advice in 2008 when a 20 year old friend was being sucked into the cult. Thanks to the help of members of the forum, she was 'rescued' just before getting baptised, much to the grateful relief of her parents.
I was very indebted to this forum for the help I was given and I stayed around as I found everything about the religion both horrifying and fascinating.
Whilst my young friend was studying with the JWs, I saw first hand the indoctrination, the judgemental attitudes and the control. The study conductor regulated every aspect of my friend's life, checking her bedroom for demonised objects, throwing out books, CDs, crystal ornaments etc. She was not supposed to talk to me as I was supposedly an 'agent of Satan'.
My friend became severely depressed and did something 'immoral'. She confessed and had a meeting with three Elders. The meeting was secretly recorded and i heard them tell her that if she had lived in the days of the Israelites, she would have been stoned for her actions. This and many other disgusting things about the religion, caused me to hate it and want to help to weaken it and support anyone trapped in it that i could..
So I have had discussions with two sets of JWs on the ministry who I invited in (I'm sadly now on the 'do not call' list) and I have chatted with quite a few in London. I'm proud that now i know enough to make them think and give them a major challenge.
So although many on the outside won't want or be able to empathise deeply with what you have been through, bear in mind that some just might!
Love to you all,
Heather B
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Results of an international survey - Love, Health, Money, Power etc, what do you most want in life?
by HB insome of you might be interested in the results of a 'yougov' survey into peoples aims in life.
see: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/23/wants/.
over 18,000 people in 17 countries were asked to think about their lives and to say which of 12 key areas they most want in life and which single one they want most overall.
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HB
Some of you might be interested in the results of a 'YouGov' survey into people’s aims in life.
See: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/23/wants/
Over 18,000 people in 17 countries were asked to think about their lives and to say which of 12 key areas they most want in life and which single one they want most overall.
The choices (listed here in the order of preference chosen in the UK) were:
Love
Better Health
Money
My own family
Free time
My own home
Career success
Creative fulfilment
Spiritual progress
Moral virtue
Physical beauty
Power.The countries polled were:
Australia, Britain, Denmark, France, Finland, Norway, Sweden, USA, East China, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Thailand, UAE
I'm not quite sure why they didn’t include India, Russia or any African or South American countries, but I guess the intention was to draw a contrast between east and west rather than to get a worldwide picture.There is a chart on the website which can be sorted by column headings to see the order people in each country rated each choice. Each choice is given a score for each country. It's not clearly explained but apparently, the score is calculated by balancing the figures for which of the 12 key areas people most want in life with which single one they want most overall.
It has to be acknowledged that the answers people give in surveys may not always be true to the way they act in real life, but nevertheless some of the statistics are interesting.
In six of the nine Western countries in the survey, love is given priority, whereas in the East, health, followed by money comes top, and love is only sixth on average.
The USA stands out as different from other western countries in how much importance is placed on spiritual progress. Eight of the ten countries where spirituality has a score over five are in the East. The USA is the only western country to give it a high priority (rated 13), equivalent to Indonesia, and just above Saudi Arabia with a score of 12, UAE with 11 and Thailand with 10. In the West, the importance of spiritual progress is scored 8 in Finland and 7 in Australia, but the rest of Europe rate it very low with scores of only 5, 4 or 3.
Do the US citizens on this forum think the stats showing that Americans rate spiritual progress equal with better health and second only to love, are reflective of what you see in your country?
Posters here are never going to be a demographically balanced sample, but it would also be interesting to hear about the personal list of 'life aims' of members of this forum. I wonder if the stats for each country represented on the forum would pan out anywhere near equivalent to the survey?
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71
I Hate the Sound of the Word Jehovah
by cofty inlistening to clips of the latest manipulative video from the watchtower i realised how much i detest that word - jehovah.. sometimes i have thought it would be interesting to observe a meeting or part of a convention.
every time i heard that word i would be unable to stay in my seat.. i have a visceral reaction every time i hear it.
it stands for so much that i have contempt for.
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HB
I have always hated the sound of the word Jehovah, and I’ve never been a JW, never been in a Kingdom Hall or been personally affected by the JW religion.
Reading through the above posts so far, and focusing on just posters that don’t like the word Jehovah, people seem to fall into three categories…..
1. Some dislike the word just because of what it is associated with and the bad memories.
2. Some dislike it mainly because of the actual physical sound of the word itself.
3. Some dislike it for both reasons 1 and 2 which have become inextricably intertwined in their brain.
People who are not particularly interested in language probably react to Cofty’s question in a completely different way than those who enjoy words for their own sake.
We mostly all know which type we are…. If poetry leaves you cold, you have no interest in etymology and think literature is a waste of time, that’s fine, you will be in the first category.
You probably think those of us in the second category that can happily spend an afternoon reading a dictionary or thesaurus, or wax lyrical over Shakespeare or Tennyson are mad.
My husband has no concept of what I am talking about when I say a word is beautiful or ugly. To him words are just utilitarian collections of letters and allow him to communicate, they have no other value. (He’s great at maths though!)
For me, the word Jehovah doesn’t have deep connotations or bad memories and I haven't been conditioned into looking at it in a certain way. It doesn’t even create a particular image in my head like the word ‘God’ or ‘Jesus’ does. Neither do I have a problem with the way it looks when written on a page.
But I intensely dislike the sound as I say it or when I hear it spoken by someone else.
It’s bad enough when said by an American or Australian, but for me it’s particularly bad when pronounced by someone with a ‘cut glass’, upper class English accent. (I'm English.)
The reason I don’t like the sound is very personal. Others may feel the opposite.
For me, Jehovah doesn’t roll of the tongue smoothly.
For a start, the sound ‘Jee’ or ‘Jeh’ involves effort. Depending on your accent and how fast you speak, the lips form either a slight open-mouthed pout or a kind of grimace with the tip of the tongue quickly touching the top of the palate. It's a jerky, alert sound, not soothing. (Say ‘Jee’ out loud then contrast for example with the easier, softer, pleasant sounds ‘mmm’ or ‘ooooh’)
The ‘Jeh’ sound doesn’t flow nicely into the next syllable ‘ho’ as the lips have to move to a new very different shape. The tongue moves to the base of the mouth, and the whole jaw needs to move to make the sound.
Then the next syllable ‘vah’ again doesn’t flow smoothly from the previous one and is a spiky, ugly, aggressive sound which is almost spat out.
There are many websites where people discuss phonaesthetics and there are countless lists of people’s favourite and most hated words. Haven't seen Jehovah mentioned in any lists good or bad.
A few words sound good but depict something unpleasant and some are ugly but describe something lovely. But in many cases, cacophonous words describe something distasteful or bad and mellifluous words describe something pleasurable or good.
E.g.: ‘glutton’, ‘grudge’ ‘bulbous’ and ‘phlegm’ are ugly sounds whereas ‘serendipity’, ‘ephemeral’ or ‘luminescence’ are flowing.
I like the sound of Dionysius, Vishnu, Zeus, Athena and Aphrodite, but not Buddha, Bacchus, Thor, Marduk or Mercury. Or Jehovah
There is a kind of very mild synaesthesia going on where the stimulation of the part of the brain that deals with processing sound creates an involuntary reaction in a different part of the brain which deals with pleasure and dislike.
Lastly, if you don’t know about the ‘Bouba/Kiki effect’, it's interesting. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect
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Headline: "Islamic Invasion: Europe now scrambles for guns." How true is this?
by cappytan ina year to a year and a half ago, i would have taken this article at face value and believed it.. now, i realize this article comes from a dubious source.
world news daily has a die-hard right-wing bias.
so, in an effort to get real information, i'm asking my european exjw's, is this article all true?
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HB
Returning to the topic of the original post, apart from the long term political, moral and ethical considerations of migration, there are more immediate logistical problems to consider.
I spoke to a friend in Munich who is a nurse to ask if she could confirm the truth or otherwise of an article I read, which stated there is a serious strain on relations between migrants and health workers in Germany.
My friend confirmed that the situation in her hospital and others she knows of is pretty bad but it is not getting reported in the German media.Apparently, on arrival in Germany, a large number of migrants are going to clinics and hospitals for treatment but they refuse to be seen or treated by female staff. However there are not enough male staff to cope and tensions flare.
A fair number of migrants present with exotic diseases which European doctors are not trained to diagnose or treat. Others, particularly from Africa, have Aids, TB and syphilis. These problems are stretching the German health system to its limits.
In some areas, police are having to guard clinics, hospitals, and large pharmacies, because violence has been erupting when migrants are told they have to pay cash for prescriptions.
The threat of violence against staff is quite a major problem. A doctor and two nurses were seriously wounded in one of the top pediatric units in the country when, despite the best efforts of the medical team, a migrant child died. In another case a migrant threw a bag of syphilis infected urine in a nurse’s face.
It is easy to sensationalise these kind of incidents but the problem that causes tension and anger is that in both these cases, the media did not report the crime and the perpetrator was not arrested.
However the point is that in spite of this level of threat, my friend confirmed that at least in her hospital, the vast majority of health workers are not even remotely considering arming themselves, but are continuing to do their job in a professional manner in difficult circumstances.
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Hey! Wanted to say Hi!
by Miss Worldly inhey!
i've been hanging around her for a while.
this is the third attempt at my 'hello'.
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HB
I'm also a Mrs Worldly, not only have I never been a JW, nor has my husband or any of my close or extended family. I came here in 2008 with a question about a friend who was getting sucked into JW land, & when she was eventually rescued I just stayed here as I enjoyed the interesting debates amongst some very intelligent people. Like Miss Worldly & others, I've learnt a llot I now feel able to debate with JWs when I meet them. I also know other 'world lies' who have often read this site but never joined. I don't post much but with only one unfortunate exception, I've always .been made to feel welcome. Its a great place here for non JWs as well as ex JWs -
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Just recovering from a 'Mormon Mind Melt' ...
by LoveUniHateExams ini was in town centre about an hour ago to buy a shirt and tie for an upcoming job interview when i was stopped by a youngish, clean cut american young man (20-ish) in a cheap suit.
my heart sank as i thought it was local jws.
to my slight relief, it was mormons!
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HB
My sister and I chatted with two young Mormons on the High Street in Romford, Essex.
One was American with stunning ‘Hollywood A-list’ good looks, age about 28, tall and slim; the other was a quiet red-head from Sweden with a chunky build, maybe aged about 20. The good looking one did most of the talking. I strongly suspected that the Swedish guy had doubts about his faith and was not enjoying missionary service.
A few years ago, I would not have had a clue how to talk with them, (I've never been a JW) but regularly reading debates on this forum has taught me a lot. I still have much to learn and I don’t know the bible like most of you here do, so I steer clear of deep biblical debate, but I enjoyed the challenge of making the Mormons think. My sister is a Humanist like me, and although she has no experience at all of debating religious issues, she is very chatty and sociable.
We talked for about half an hour, it was very friendly. During the conversation, my sister asked the Mormons why they dressed so stuffily in suits, and suggested they would have better success engaging with people if they looked more normal, especially in Romford. She recommended T-shirt and jeans which would be appropriate for their age and the town. The older one said their suits were a symbol to demonstrate their respect for a righteous life style, the younger one just looked embarrassed and uncomfortable as if he’d love to rip his jacket and tie off there and then.
My sister invited them to come out with us later that evening to join a group of our friends in the pub, explaining that although we would be having fun, no one would be unrighteous. The American naturally declined the invitation, but we just knew the Swede would have loved to join us, his eyes gave it away.
We covered several topics but the one I recall best was asking if they had ever personally experienced a prayer being answered. The examples they gave were not impressive, and quite superficial, like a headache being cured, but they assure me others had had miraculous answers to prayer.
I asked them why God would take the time to cure a slightly inconvenient headache but fail to answer prayers for starving people in the developing world. The good looking Mormon said that if God didn’t answer such prayers, it must be his will for these people to starve. My sister asked how they could worship a god who behaved like that. I asked if he would be prepared to tell that to the mother of a baby in arms who was dying of mal-nutrition.
The answer he gave stunned me: He said the baby would be better off dead as it would go to Heaven and therefore bypass all the suffering it would have endured on the earth. I gasped slightly and said derisively, in that case, as an act of kindness, why don’t we just go and kill all the babies and young children in the third world right now to save them the bother of living?
The Swede hung his head and was staring at the floor, looking really uncomfortable, and shifting from foot to foot. The American looked confused and embarrassed, and just said that was not quite what he meant. However I knew the point was made so I didn’t spoil the friendly atmosphere by pushing it further and we thanked them for an interesting chat and moved on.