Posts by hector3000

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

DBeetle: do more harm to persons already suffering; to take sheep already skinned and thrown about and beat them some more....no empathy, no healing words. Just MORE judgement and MORE emotional BATTERING....this doctrinal debate around instead of healing and kindness.

Reply: You hawkites sound wimpy to me. For a minute I thought I was part of a woman's support group. C'mon...a real person is not defined by his misery. It is how you handle the bad stuff that determines what sort of person you are, crumbling under it only magnifies how weak you are. Are you going to fight the fine fight of the faith, or run away in surrender?
Oh, and Oprah is on at 5:00.

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

Ahh Hawk...you still don't get it. W76:
"The Roman Catholic Church and the World Council of Churches, with a membership of over 250 churches, have repeatedly declared the United Nations to be “the chief temporal hope for world peace.”"

Have JW's done this? No!

" The Holy See maintains a permanent observer at the UN and contributes financial as well as moral support to many of its economic, social, scientific, cultural, and humanitarian programs."

Have JW's done this? No!

"Sixteen Catholic international organizations contribute formally to the work of ECOSOC and various Specialized Agencies through the medium of consultative status with these bodies, and Catholic groups and individuals in various countries contribute to the formation of national policy and action with regard to the UN.”-Vol. 14, p. 423."

Have JW's done this? No!

From W91:
"A recent book gives an idea when it states: “No less than twenty-four Catholic organizations are represented at the UN. Several of the world’s religious leaders have visited the international organization. Most memorable were the visits of His Holiness Pope Paul VI during the General Assembly in 1965 and of Pope John Paul II in 1979. Many religions have special invocations, prayers, hymns and services for the United Nations. The most important examples are those of the Catholic, the Unitarian-Universalist, the Baptist and the Bahai faiths.”"

Have JW's done this? No!

Talk about making mountains out of library cards.
That is pretty much all I have to say on this tired topic.

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

dutch: As you are no doubt aware, it has only been in these later years that the watchtower stopped teaching that its writings were divinely inspired by Jehovah, just as the bible was.

Reply: Nope, those quotes I gave you are over a century old.

dutch: I digress. If the watchtower were truly Jehovah's organization there surely would be consistency in its teachings. Jehovah is a god of order, not disorder.

Reply: Maybe this is true for the divinely inspired 1st century church, but not for those who know "by faith, not by sight." You will actually find JW are more consistent than other churches in this matter, but we are not perfect. I got the following from Rob Bowman:
"The latest Barna and Gallup research reveals the shocking but true
statistics of how the church is being molded by or postmodern culture rather
than vice-versa. For example 1996-1997 research reveals the following:
84% of Americans claim to be "Christian." (a significant drop from 90% in
1995-1996) and 40% of Americans claim to be "born again," that is to have
confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ and Lord and Savior.

67% of the general population reject belief in absolute truth and also
believe that all religions will equally get one to heaven if one is faithful
(universalism). As alarming as this is, even more so is that 53% of "born
again" Christians agree with this and reject the belief in absolute truth
while 41% of the "born again population embrace the belief of universalism!

The belief that a person qualifies for heaven if they are good, breaks down
denominationally as follows:

Roman Catholics, 82%; Methodist, Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians
range from 52-59%; Baptist 38%; Assemblies of God 22%.

70% of Americans are members of a church, temple, or synagogue, however,
only 31% attend weekly. It gets worse. Only 17% attend Sunday School weekly
(1996), down from 23% in 1991.

58% of Americans believe that the Bible is totally accurate, 32% of the
"born again" Christian reject the infallibility of the Bible.

20% of Americans identify themselves as New Age practitioners, 53% believe
in ESP, 24% have practiced Transcendental Meditation, 34% believe in a New
Age form of God, 36% read their horoscopes regularly and 26% believe that
astrology is scientifically accurate (a recent Life Magazine poll indicated
48% believe that astrology is probably or definitely valid). Belief in
reincarnation grew from 25% in 1992 to an astonishing 30% in 1996.

Especially troubling is of the "born again" population: 28% believe that
Jesus sinned and didn’t rise from the dead, 47% say Satan is not living
being-only a symbol for evil, and 43% deny the Person of the Holy Spirit
calling Him a symbol of Gods power!

As you read the above incredible statistics remember that 84% of those
polled identified themselves as "Christians." Because of the high level of
consciousness toward religion or spirituality, with a low level of true
knowledge or understanding, our population continues to drift toward the
abyss. The old Biblical paradigm teaches that if you have the right teaching
you will experience God correctly, redemptively. The new paradigm is that if
you "experience" God, then you have the "right" teaching."

dutchie: The Calvins and the Luterants never claimed to be the only true religion.

Reply: That's not entirely true also.
Dutch, don't get upset but I am going to use that word again: SAD
Sad that people let their lives be consumed by this "hate" just because some men tell you that they have the "truth" and then they publish numerous books and magazines to "prove" that this is the truth, when Jehovah's word the bible should be enough.

dutch: Hector, I do not doubt that you gave away many magazines for free. However, don't forget that YOU paid for those magazines before you offered them to the householder. So the watchtower got their money

Reply: Did I?

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

dutch: Surely the "generation" doctrine was core to the teachings of the witnesses.

Reply: The "generation" is a change of application of prophecy. not a change of doctrine. Part of our believe system states that we are to accept this kind of change, which you might say, is doctrine.
"We do not object to changing our opinions on any subject, or discarding former applications of prophecy, or any other scripture, when we see a good reason for the change,-in fact, it is important that we should be willing to unlearn errors and mere traditions, as to learn truth. . . . It is our duty to "prove all things."-by the unerring Word,-"and hold fast to that which is good."" -- "The Ten Virgins," Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's
Presence, October 1879, reprint, 38.

dutch: Also, as you said we humans are not vessels of absolute truth. But surely you believe that Jehovah is a vessel of absolute truth and the watchtower is supposed to be Jehovah's earthly organization.

Reply: "Nevertheless, we are far from claiming any direct plenary inspiration. . . .
A careful examination of the subject leads us to the conclusion that the Lord providentially shapes our course so as to give us such personal experiences in life as will bring us to his word for comfort and instruction in righteousness; and thus he permits us to sympathize with the experiences and questionings of his people, and then present to them at appropriate times the lessons drawn from our own experiences, backed by the instructions and comfort of the Scriptures." -- "Interesting Letters," Zion's Watch Tower and
Herald of Christ's Presence, 15 July 1899, reprint, 2506.

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

Ahhh hawk. I have buried you. You have completely ignored the context of the quote (which BTW was not their quote at all), and my evidence above, which provides the death-knell to your doctrine.

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

hawk: The doctrine is clear - be a NGO and associate/affiliate etc with the UN for any reason, a religion is then considered part of the great harlot that rides the beast.

Reply: No hawk, that is your misreading of it. To be an NGO AND think of it as God's kingdom on earth, and say prayers to it is looked down upon. But the WTS has viewed it favorably also:

"Moreover, nongovernmental and nonprofit organizations were established for the sole purpose of accident prevention. To name just two:' ABPA (Brazilian Association for Accident Prevention) and the National Safety Council in the United States. Some of the objectives of the latter are "to further, encourage, and promote methods and procedures leading to increased safety, protection, and health among employees and employers and among children." Basically, the same objectives are pursued by similar organizations world wide....This extensive concern on the part of the authorities illustrates how big the problem has become and how much pain, sorrow and damage could be avoided if all of us showed genuine interest in our own welfare and that of others." 11/22 77 Awake

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

hawk: Yeah no weasel room is right.

Reply: Isn't is amazing hawk how you come full circle.
You people complain of our faulty dependence on the Watchtower, yet you rely on exaclty the same thing for your own conclusions.

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

Here is a great quiz:
Try to answer each in turn, and be honest!

Would you be disfellowshipped as an apostate from the WT TODAY, if you believed and taught the Society's doctrines of 1920? (or 1879, or 1974) (after the inspection)
YES______ NO______

Reply: Yes, and you should be df'ed. 1974?? We are progressive, not regressive. If we all truly were regressive, the entire western world would still be Catholic.

Would a JW of 1920 have been disfellowshipped if he then believed and taught present-day WT doctrines?
YES______ NO______

Reply: Biblically, anyone factious should be removed (though finding examples of the above might be harder to prove. A waiting attitude is an exemplary Christian trait.

Would a JW living in 1913 have been disfellowshipped from the WT if he believed and taught that 1914 was NOT going to be the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty" or Armagedon as the Society was then saying (StinScrip, VolII, The Time Is At Hand, 1908 ed. pg 101, 171 & 245)?
YES______ NO______

Reply: Who cares?

Is it right to be disfellowshipped and treated as an apostate for believing and teaching the TRUTH?
YES______ NO______

Reply: YES! In Acts 16:17 we have the following:
"She followed Paul and us, crying, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation." And this she did for many days. But Paul was annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I charge you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And it came out that very hour." RSV
This demon was expelled, even though he told the truth. The SOURCE of truth was more important.

Since the WT's doctrines and practices are continually changing, would you say that thousands of JWs in the past were NOT "in the truth" according to present-day WT teachings, as they confessed?
YES______ NO______

Reply: See Scripture above. The core doctrines were correct, were they not?

Have thousands of JWs died believing and teaching WT "errors", according to present-day WT teachings?
YES______ NO______

Reply: No!

Did you know that CT Russell taught the resurrected Jesus is "Almighty" based on his conclusion of Matt 28:18 (The Finished Mystery pg 15)?
YES______ NO______

Jesus is not God but God's representative and, as such, so completely and totally acts on God's behalf that he stands in God's stead before the world. The Gospel clearly states that God and Jesus are not to be understood as identical persons. as in 14:28, "The Father is greater than I."

According to Matt 28:18, is it the Father or the Son who as "ALL authority" in HEAVEN and on earth?
FATHER______ SON______

Reply: ""All authority in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN to me." RSV
Something GIVEN indicates a time when you did not have it.

As a JW are you allowed to worship the one with "ALL authority" in HEAVEN and on earth?
YES______ NO______

Reply: YES. I will proskuneo him.

What is more important? Loyalty the the Truth or loyalty to the TruthTM?
Can you distinguish between the Two?
YES______ NO______

Reply: Barclay writes that there is truth in the statement that we cannot have God for our Father if we do not have the Church for our Mother. (see The Gospel of Mark-Daily Bible Series, p. 331)

If the light keeps getting brighter on the ever expanding knowledge of the truthTM then these questions must be asked as well as

Since the WT's doctrines and practices are continually changing, would you say that thousands of JWs in the past were NOT in the truthTM according to present-day WT teachings, as they confessed?
YES_____ NO______

Reply: See above

Are you sure the same thing won't happen to YOU?
YES_____ NO______

Reply: What core doctrines have changed in the recent past?

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

Dutchie: "Just one more thing. Knowledge can increase, but truth does not change! There is a difference Hector."

Reply: Ahh, but it does to humans, and it always should. We impewrfect humans are not vessels of absolute truth, the best we can strive for are vessels of honor (2 Tim 2:20)
"Truth" changed for you, did it not? Only God knows absolute truth.
Church members in previous centuries had their blood sucked out by leaches, but increased knowledge bought new truths.
All protestant churches are the result of a change of "truth".
When some of the first Christians came to the New World on the Speedwell (joining the Mayflower), they were given this
memorable charge:
"If God reveals anything to you by any other instrument of His, be ready to recieve it as you were to recieve any *truth* by my ministry, for I am verily persuaded that the Lord hath *more truth* yet to break forth out of His holy Word. For my part, I cannot sufficiently bewail the condition of those reformed Churches which are come to a period in religion, and will go, at present, no further than the instruments of their reformation. The Lutherans cannot be drawn to go beyond what Luther saw; whatever part of His will our God has revealed in Calvin, they
will rather die than embrace it; and the Calvinists, you see, stick fast where they were left by that great man of God, who saw yet not all things. This is a mystery much to be lamented, for thought they were burning and shining lights in their times, yet they penetrated not into the whole counsel of God; but were they now living, would be as willing to embrace further light as that which they first recieved, for it is not possible the Christian world should
come so lately out of such thick anti-Christian and that perfection of knowledge should break forth at once."
John Robinson, 1620 A.D. as quoted in the Pilgrim Church, by E.H. Broadbent, p.257
I think Jehovah's Witnesses have progressive, while many beliefs have remained stagnant. But at the same time, we have "penetrated not into the whole counsel of God" yet.
The problem with everyone here is that they expect perfection where there never was any in the first place:
"We do not object to changing our opinions on any subject, or discarding former applications of prophecy, or any other scripture, when we see a good reason for the change,-in fact, it is important that we should be willing to unlearn errors and mere traditions, as to learn truth. . . . It is our duty to "prove all things."-by the unerring Word,-"and hold fast to that which is good."" -- "The Ten Virgins," Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence, October 1879, reprint, 38.
I say BRAVO to that!

You are simply confusing Truth with absolute knowledge. Satan is smarter than the rest of us, and knows more about the medical system than your accusations, yet "the truth is not in him" (Jn 8:44). Truth liberates us from sin (John 8:32) not ignorance.
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com

185

Typical JW Apologist

by TheStar in

jw
friends

this jw (like so many do) avoids discussing the real issues at hand and instead opts for: .

do jehovah's witnesses have pedophiles in their mists?.

yes but look at everyone else that does too and they're much worse.. i'm not even going to mention how badly he defends the un scandal, i'll let you read it yourself.. this guy has your typical "holier-than-thou" attitude.

hector3000

Dutchie:Talk about making money off the bible! Who do you know that publishes so many bible based books every year. Every month it seems there is a new publication, a new brochure, a new truth. If the "truth" is non changing, an absolute, the watchtower certainly spends a lot of time publishing new books to cover the latest "truth"!

Reply:Dutch, there is a big difference between publishing a book that you will give away, and Tyndale House and Zondervan that will SELL millions and get rich. I have never sold a book or bible in the last 20 years that I know of, but I have given many away.
All publishing companies publish the latest books, newer books, all the time. "Knowledge will increase" in the time of the end, and we accept correction to accomodate this increase.
However, on the other hand, we have recently seen the release of the English Standard Version, Holman Christian Standard Bible, International English Bible, International Standard Version, Todays International Version, etc., which have offered really nothing new, except propping a billion dollar bible mill industry.

You know what is really SAD? The way you all use the word "SAD." This says alot about you.