hillary_step

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Posts by hillary_step

• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Deputy,

  You would have to admit that God created moral evil (sin) when he gave the law. You know, Don't eat of the tree. Giving the law, is a far step from committing sin.

  ...and yet you STILL have not answered the question. Narkissos is right, you are one slippery Christian. ;)

  Rather than trying to hide the issue behind irrelevant details, smoke-screening and appeals to emotion will not cut it here Deputy.Why not answer the question? Let me try again.

  Romans 1:20 indicates that enough of the PERSON of God can be recognized from his creation in order to justify adverse judgement against those who do not see the PERSON of God in his 'creation'.

  I am asking YOU what the fact that every creature from the smallest microbe to the largest mammal on this planet relies on the death of another in order to survive, i.e. survival of the fittest, the strong at the expense of the weak, tell YOU about God's PERSON? Should a person who concludes that God 'created' his visible universe in a manner that relied at its core on deceit, violence, poison and amorality be adversely judged for doing so?

  How many more times need I ask this question of you to get a straight answer?

  HS
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  real one,

  he has a violent, amoral, deceitful personality and gave reasons for this reasoning, you countered by suggesting that I was confusing 'nature' with 'character', using Romans 1:20 to try to prove this.

  You say this about God? why?

  Groan.......ask Deputy or Burn.

  HS
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Narkissos,

  Mixing up François Truffaut and Jacques Tati is almost inexcusable...

  Even more embarrassing as it is one of the most viewed films in my house. I apologize to all Tati fans wherever they may chuckle.

  Senior moments are destined to demand humility. If it shines any light on the matter, I managed to spell my own name incorrectly while signing a tax form recently...lol. My wife tells me that my mind is not what it was. I reply, 'Never mind the quality feel the width'.

  HS

  PS - Believe it or not I met Truffaut at an 'after theatre' party in Paris just before he died in the 80's. He was kind enough not to correct my feeble French and I was kind enough not to inquire as to how he was logistically able to wear so many women on his arm at one time without tripping over feet. "Practice', he would no doubt have intoned.
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Burn,

  It is hard to concentrate with a child crawling on my lap and a wife at the foot of the stairs asking for this that and everything. Sorry

  Our posts crossed. I understand the distraction.

  Let's face it, your wife and child are far more important than the Apostle Paul's bigotted and egocentric view of life. Where is the misogynistic sod when the mortgage needs paying? ;)

  HS
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Burn,

  IT was clear Narkissos, (although you quote Barth you do not demosntrate your point however) I merely pointed to your outline of the "orthodox" position. I am not exactly using Romans 1:20 as an anti-anything diatribe, but HS is using it to prove (or abuse) a point so I am using it in that context. Romans 1 is neither contextually nor theologically suitable for anti-theist or anti-Christian diatribe either.

  Good grief man! Have you still not seen that both Narkissos and myself, though approaching this issue from different paths are bent upon trying to get both yourself and Deputy to see the very same point. The problem is that neither of you seem to be able to see either point.

  You remind me of a scene from the Truffaut movie, 'Jour De Fete', in which the main character is beleaguered by a fly whilst riding his postal workers bicycle. He then spends three minutes waving his arms and legs around like a windmill hoping that somehow he will hit the target. Unfortunately the postman is a bit of an idiot, though we will not carry the cameo quite that far. ;)

  Either Romans 1:20 is correct in suggesting that enough of Gods PERSON can be recognized from 'creation' to provide a basis for condemning to an adverse judgement those who cannot see that PERSON, or that the scripture is badly flawed in principle. What I have been evidencing is that what we see in nature is survival of the fittest by ANY means available. If by acknowledging this fact we see the PERSON of God as deceitful, violent and amoral, then it follows that either God is so expressed, or that Paul had no ethical or indeed theological basis upon which to suggest that it is an issue of judgement.

  The only 'inescusable' thing I see here is Paul's logic.

  HS
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Awakened07,

  Thank you for elucidating my point which is actually clear as crystal but for some mysterious reason seems not to be understood by Deputy and Burn.

  Burn,

  Strictly speaking, this is not correct, examples are too obvious to bother innumerating.

  Elucidate away. If you are trying to suggest that in nature the fit do not survive at the sacrifice of the not so fit, you will find yourself quickly at odds with facts, but I am listening.

  Also, you are attaching moral agency to amoral nonagents. You might was well call a dislodged stone that brains a snow leopard below amoral, violent, and sociopathic.

  Once again, you have missed, perhaps deliberately to see the point that I am making. I am at a loss as to how to put it any clearer. Let me try yet again.

  Romans 1:20 suggests that every person on this planet should be able to learn enough about God from his creation to either be judged worthy of life or death based on this notion.

  You state that what we learn is about God's 'nature' and his 'eternal Godship'. Despite your attempts are fleshing out the meaning of this word and phrase by quoting its original Greek term, you barely cam cose to understanding what my point was.

  So again I asked, is it possible to see God's personality in his 'creation'. Deputy eventually agreed that it was, which FINALLy bought us back to my original point.

  What does the deceit, violence and amoral actions of creatures on this planet, from the microbe to the whale, which have to kill other creatures in order to themselves cling to life, tell YOU about God the Creator?

  HS
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Deputy,

  IS God's personality evident in his 'creation'?

  The obvious answer is yes

  Finally, you answered my question.

  Now, perhaps you might explain why, when I suggested that what the creation 'evidenced' about 'God', was that he has a violent, amoral, deceitful personality and gave reasons for this reasoning, you countered by suggesting that I was confusing 'nature' with 'character', using Romans 1:20 to try to prove this.

  As I have already noted, and as you now agree, the 'nature' of God and the 'personality' of God are enmeshed from the viewpoint of Romans 1:20. Subsequently, my original point then stands and has yet to be attended to, so let me try again.

  Everything in this universe lives by the death of others. In order for the most minute creature to the largest to live; deceit, amorality, violence and sociopathy are the order of the hour.

  I do not expect evolution to have a personality, but what exactly does this teach you about God's personality? Burn recognized the dilemma but chose the common creatonists opt-out route by suggesting that nature as we know it, is not nature as God designed, hence the 'groaning' notation in Romans. As he is not a Creatonist, his logic eludes me, but that is another issue altogether.

  HS
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Burn,

  Paul is saying that we can deduce God's invisible qualities from that which has been made. Specifically, the invisible qualities the "made things" reveal about God are his eternal power and divine nature. Paul then goes on in the verse and in v 21 to say that these leave those that do not worship God without excuse.

  My questions are still unanswered and again I would rather believe that you are being deliberately obtuse rather than accidently stupid! WHAT QUALITIES ARE REVEALED BY GODS ETERNAL POWER AND DIVINE NATURE? What is readable, if anything, about God from Nature? What do you understand the word 'nature' to be, and the phrase 'eternal Godship to mean?' It is very important to know what these 'qualities' are, as according to Romans 1:20 those who do not see these 'qualities' are judged worthy of adverse judgement. HS
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Deputy,

  I don't have a problem saying "I don't know". I guess "I don't know" what you are asking! What would you expect to see that you're not seeing?

  I would expect to be seeing an answer to my question. Which you repeatedly avoided answering.

  I suspect that you might have difficulty keeping a track of your own posts, so let me recap.

  You suggested that I was confusing the word 'character', with 'nature' when it came to grasping the meaning of Romans 1:20. Since then, I have asked more often than I needed to what you have assumed the 'nature' of God to be, and how this is different from 'character' and wether any sense of personality was involved in this term.

  I note your question below which led to my asking this question:

  Are you confusing God's nature, with God's character?

  My replies:

  I would be interested to read your observations as what one can actually tell about God from the 'creation' as outlined in Romans 1:20 as you seem to be suggesting that personal characteristics, like 'love' for example, are excluded from the 'nature' and 'eternal godship' mentioned in the scripture that are easily observable by all people.

  Though Romans 1:20 discusses two aspects of God's 'qualities' - His/Her eternal power and divine nature, it would be disengenous to say the least that you were not suggesting that his/her 'character' was not also enmeshed in this issue. I will quote your own posts as evidence:

  This is a further statement which need to be validated as it seems to suggest that character is involved in this statement that ;God is evident within them'.

  Romans 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. Everyone knows about God.
  

  I them asked AGAIN:

  Perhaps you might clarify what you mean by the 'nature' of God?

  I would be interested to read your observations as what one can actually tell about God from the 'creation' as outlined in Romans 1:20 as you seem to be suggesting that personal characteristics, like 'love' for example, are excluded from the 'nature' and 'eternal godship' mentioned in the scripture that are easily observable by all people.

  I then asked AGAIN:

  Does Romans 1:20 suggest Godly attributes are 'readable' from nature or not?

  I am not sure how many ways I can ask this question, but let me try again.

  IS God's personality evident in his 'creation'? IF SO, how does this gel with what we catually see in nature as outlined in my original post.

  I find it very hard to accept that you are too dense to understand what I am asking for, though of course this is a possibilty. I do understand why you are pretending that my questions are confusing you however.

  HS
• 
  168

  Athiest or Agnostic?

  by real one in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how can one be considered an athiest?

  athiest means you believe god does not exist.

  agnostic means you don't know if god really exist.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Burn,

  Yes, you have slithered from the issue.

  Why not answer the question that I pose above regarding Romans 1:20?

  I am not seeking 'knock out' punches for anyone, especially those who have been knocked out more times than is decent, I am looking for validation for an issue that Deputy raised, not myself.

  Can either of you give me a straight answer?

  HS

  PS - I have no issue with a person stating, "I do not know", though such a statement seems alien to the religious mind. ;)