Laurie Anderson is a very creative thinker and has been for decades. Her performance art is always impeccably orchestrated as is this particular sequence which I have not seen before.
Excellent stuff. Thank you.
HS
hillary_step
JoinedPosts by hillary_step
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Where was Noah's flood ?
by a Christian inone of the things that has long been debated is the location of noah's flood.
the most popular, and most common claim, is that the flood was in mesopotamia, or present day iraq.
but, as has been pointed out on this forum before by alan f and others, the major problem with this theory is that the entire area drains into the persian gulf.
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hillary_step
AChristian,
I believe the Caspian Sea is the most likely location for Noah's flood based on all the evidence. Here's why.
You seem to be presenting this as if it were your theory, but this Black Sea/Caspian Sea possible location of the Biblical Flood has been around for years and has been extensively researched scientifically.
The evidence seems to point to a huge breach in the land mass between the two seas at some point in recent history. As a matter of fact, even the fabled Wikipedia ;) has an entry for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory
HS
Edited to add that Burn The Ships has already linked the article in question.
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74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
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hillary_step
Burn,
Your posts obscure, mine illuminate. ;) I answered your post, line by line.
How many surviving documents have been transmitted the 1st century? Precious few. We do not have a daily news archive from the era. What we know of a great many historical figures from antiquity would only fill a single page and what has been transmitted to us regarding them contains a great deal of the supernatural and miraculous. Do we jettison these sources? The simple fact of the matter is that it is impossible for us to know a great deal about ancient people, we do not have the data, and that the argument from silence is a poor one in this case.
I have yet to read such rubbish uttered in the name of historical accuracy. Your arguments are ridiculous and followed to its rightful conclusion would have us doubt the documented existence of historical figures that are written in blood. You have no idea what you are talking about Burn.
Thousands of documents exist from the C1st. The British Museum itself has hundreds just from the Middle East itself, though numerous documents that ar far earlier than the C1st exist from all over the world.. The least documented era is strangely enough in more recent times, the Dark Ages for example, when the churches virtually banned any non-religious writings.
You have lost the plot on this one.
HS
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74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
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hillary_step
Snowbird,
He is returning to rule this planet in love and compassion; isn't that a desirable thing?
"...broad and spacious is the road leading to destruction...."
HS
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74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
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hillary_step
Burn,
The majority and mainstream of opinion of historians and biblical scholars is that Jesus the man existed.
This thread is not about whether Jesus THE MAN existed. For example, I have already noted, because evidence is plentiful, that Palestine was FILLED with multiple 'Jesus the Man' during the C1st. Numerous loonies claiming to be the Messiah were written about, and documented by secular sources.
What this thread is about Burn is whether the BIBLICAL Jesus existed.....you know, this one:
No, you find it in the Bible, where it is purported that a man allegedly defied gravity by walking on water, allegedly, on more than one occasion ressurected the dead in front of a huge funeral party, allegedly healed the blind, lame and deaf throughout the whole of Palestine, allegedly fed thousands of people by miraculously multiplying some bread and fish that he had, allegedly turned water into wine in front of dozens of wedding guests, allegedly ascended into heaven with numerous people present, whose death allegedly caused earthquakes and an eclipse. etc. etc.
None of the above appeared in any of the Roman Annals either. The point is though, that they should have as they were the kind of events that would have been discussed throughout the land.
I do not apologize for repeating my own post. If posts were carefully read, so much valuable time would be saved.
The majority and mainstream of opinion of historians and biblical scholars is that Jesus the man existed.
I have read few historians who accept that a Biblical Jesus existed, the 'majority' believe the Biblical Jesus to be a myth though accept that the myth was based on a man who did exist, a sort of David Koresh without the fire. ;). It is a given that the 'majority' of Biblical Scholars who might be believers accept in FAITH that the Biblical Jesus existed, though even in this group many exist who deny the miracles.
The reality is Burn, accept it or not, that the secular evidence for the existence of the Biblical Jesus is less than minimal, more than tenous, and unreliable in the extreme.
If this evidence was a birdge, would you drive across it?
HS
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74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
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hillary_step
Burn,
I would like to add also that large part of the firepower directed at the historicity of the person called Jesus is drawn from an those attempting to discredit the Christian religion; it does not stem from scholarly impulses.
On the contrary. Given the virtually complete lack of secular evidence as to the authenticity of the Biblical Christ, the lack of scholarly imperative lies with those making supernatural claims. You are hoping that by casting aspersions on the motives of those who through lack of evidence view the Biblical Christ as a myth, you might blight their case. In fact, what you do is to actually undermine your own argument.
What a Christian believer cannot avoid is that the feeble secular evidence for the Biblical Christ does not survive scholarly rigors.
To use an example cited previously: We may doubt the miracles associated with the founder of Mormonism, but that he definitely existed is not very doubtful.
The problem with your argument is that secular evidence exists that evidences the birth, life and death of the founder of Mormonism, but no secular evidence exist that evidence any miracles from this person. The Biblical Christ however, hits out on both counts.
Edit: within a few posts you misread me and HS, XJW misread me and you... perhaps reading a little slower would help.
There you go Burn. I am not the only one who has noticed just how often you get into a tangle in your rush to judgement when replying to a post.
HS
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74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
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hillary_step
Burn,
What then is your assumption regarding the relationship between the character Flavius Josephus and the so-called Testimonium Flavium? Is your assumption a contradiction to the commonly accepted position or is this just a bit of vacuous sophistry?
I am not quite sure what you are trying to get at here. Narkissos is quite clear Burn, if you read his posts carefully, that he is following an argument based on the other posters assumptions and not his own.
The commonly accepted position the past couple of hundred years is that the sections of the Testimonium Flavium which focus on the person of Christ were not penned by Josephus but by forgers sympathetic to the Christian cause and who were trying to provide some 'secular' evidence that took the Biblical Christ from a myth to an historical reality. I guess in their minds, the ends justified the means and given the lack of external evidence as to whether the Biblical Christ actually existed, I suppose this can be understood.
As a student of linguistics, if that is not the position that Narkissos takes on this subject, I would be very surprised.
HS
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74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
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hillary_step
Snowbird,
Note please, that I didn't say the Romans were intolerant; I said they were contemptuous of any and every thing not Roman.
Well, you are wrong about that whether you use the word 'toleration' or 'contempt'. That is the point.
The Romans, like the Celts were well known for their ability to adopt without shame facets of the nations they conquered, both socially or religiously. What they were truly 'contempous' (intolerant) of was any belief system, political thinking or social disturbance that would in any way threaten the Republic.
One of those supernatural events is the account of His resurrection when some of the guards stationed at His tomb either fainted or fled in terror at the appearance of the angel. The Jewish hierarchy bribed them to say that the disciples stole the body, and assured them that matters would be smoothed over with Pilate. Bet you won't find that in the Roman annals.
No, you find it in the Bible, where it is purported that a man allegedly defied gravity by walking on water, allegedly, on more than one occasion ressurected the dead in front of a huge funeral party, allegedly healed the blind, lame and deaf throughout the whole of Palestine, allegedly fed thousands of people by miraculously multiplying some bread and fish that he had, allegedly turned water into wine in front of dozens of wedding guests, allegedly ascended into heaven with numerous people present, whose death allegedly caused earthquakes and an eclipse. etc. etc.
None of the above appeared in any of the Roman Annals either. The point is though, that they should have as they were the kind of events that would have been discussed throughout the land.
HS
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74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
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hillary_step
Snowbird,
You mean Bethlehem don't you? Perhaps only a dozen or more were killed since Bethlehem was such a small, insiginificant place?
Yes, my bad. I meant Jerusalem where the edict was pronounced by Herod against the children in Bethlehem and ENVIRONS. You are speculating on a figure to suit your needs, I am not. The Bible paints this as a significant slaughter which would have resounded among the society of the day and most certainly would have made the Roman annals.
The Romans were contemptuous of any and all things not Roman, so why would they have recorded anything concerning the despised Jews?
You need to study history in a little more detail. The Romans were actually NOT contemptous of 'any and all things Roman'. I have no idea where that statement came from. The Roman Empire was actually very tolerant of other peoples, and especially their religion, not due to philanthropy but due to practicality. The Empire was huge and the amount of Romans relaitvely small. That is why they created Vassal States of which Palestine was one. The Romans tolerated the religion of both Jews and Christians, and only when it was viewed as a threat to the Republic was any action taken against them. A recommended read is 'Religious Persecution In Ancient Rome' by Simeon Gutterman on this subject.
The Romans recorded everything that happened in its Empire including Palestine is great detail, as I have already noted. Do some research on the matter, you will find it interesting.
Besides, Rome had too many problems with its expansion program to be unduly preoccupied with the Jews in Palestine. For instance, when Arminius or Hermann destroyed three! of Rome's famed legions in the Battle of Teutoberg Forest, Jesus would have been a teenager.
This is not actually accurate regarding Palestine, which was viewed as an unimportant outpost of the Empire, a sort of Siberia in the Middle East. In fact Pontius Pilate was sent there in 'exile' for upsetting the Senate. Palestine was a thorn in Roman sides, but only a small one. Very small as compared to the Teutons who were the focus of Roman paranoia.
The Teutons were indeed a huge problem to the Romans, but that was on the European theatre and played no part in Palestinian aspirations at all. In fact it was Romes uneccessary fixation with the roaming Teutons that eventually undermined its military morale.
I ask again, why would Roman historians have been concerned with Jesus at all?
We are interested in finding out whether the BIBLICAL Jesus existed,. There are numerous alleged supernatural events which took place throughout Israel that were they credible, would certainly have been included in the pages of the Roman historians and journalists of the day. I have noted two such ones in my first post. For example Josephus makes notation of the death of Herod's own children at his hands, together with numerous other minor and major outrages against other people, many of them 'ordinary'. Yet no mention is made of the slaughter in Bethlehem.
HS
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74
Solid Non-Biblical Proof That Jesus Existed
by White Dove ini have not heard of one single (non-shroud of turin) piece of evidence that jesus ever walked the earth.
please give me non-biblical and non-shroud of turin evidence that has been found that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the jesus of the bible walked the earth.. is that too much to ask?
the bible says it happened but gives no proof to support its statements.. the shroud of turin has not been established as proof of anything beyond a good wax and dye job.. .
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hillary_step
The reality, and this is a very hard one for any Christian to accept, is that there is no reliable non-Biblical proof that Jesus Christ existed.
The Romans were fastidious in their record keeping and the reigns of Augustus & Tiberias Ceaser were no exception. The reason that we know so much about everyday life in the Roman Empire, and this includes Palestine, is because of the existence of these records which catalogued everything from the price of eggs, to the strength of earthquakes.
The brief mention by Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger of a figure who is interpreted as being the Biblical Christ, is in itself almost evidence that the Biblical Christ did not exist. The reason that I state this is that no unique 'supernatural' attributes are mentioned as attributable this person at all, and it this most certainly have been mentioned. His personage is mentioned so briefly by these Roman historians that no reliable evidence can be garnered from what they say. The 'evidence' of Josephus, is as has already been established tenous to say the least and has to be viewed as equally unreliable.
Now, given that Roman historians were so meticulous in their record keeping, it has to be asked as an example, why an event that according to the Bible resulted in the masscre of hundreds of newly born children throughout Jerusalem and its surrounding areas is not in these records. It would have been if it had happened. The Romans were very superstitious. Another example. When, according to the Bible Christ was crucified, their were various supernatural phenomena that accompanied this event which are not noted in the records.
These are just a couple of examples which evidence the fact not only did Jesus, as the Bible paints him, not exist, but that the 'miracles' in the Bible are a later addition to its text.
Now, numerous non-Biblical Jesus Chrestus existed in Palestine. Numerous loonies claiming to be the Christ were an everyday event in the lives of the Jews, as they are now. No doubt some person claiming to be the Christ of the Bible was the foundation for the religion of Christianity, but he certainly does not fit the Biblical view of the man.
HS