Posts by possible-san

41

"the wife should have deep respect for her husband" (Eph 5:33)

by Wonderment in

does anyone here think this command still applies in force today as it did 2000 years ago?.

possible-san

Wonderment.

Sorry, I don't take any stock in Dr. Joseph Murphy's explanation as you quoted him.

Are you an idiot?
Weren't you merely questioning people about the interpretation?

You should appreciate/thank first to my having taught you my interpretation, IMO.
I think that it is a lie that you said you were merely asking a question.

On page 486 he adds:
"A number of passages could be easily misunderstood as mere permission in most English translations [...]
The Greek is stronger than a mere option, engaging the volition and placing a requirement on the individual:...
Eph 5:33..."

You have ignored the part of the words which I emphasized.
That is, "in most English translations."
That is "Bible versions" which you consider as "ultimate authority."

possible

41

"the wife should have deep respect for her husband" (Eph 5:33)

by Wonderment in

does anyone here think this command still applies in force today as it did 2000 years ago?.

possible-san

Wonderment.

I merely posted the question above in this thread because I was really curious to see how many on this board interpret the passage today.
And I got the answer.
A good number of posters think it does not apply today, and some others have stated that it still applies, others stated that it applies conditionally, only if a man is deserving of respect.
I believe the counsel still applies, but unfortunately, many men today abuse their position of headship, making it challenging for many women to love and respect their men.

OK, I see.
You want to know many people's "interpret the passage."
Then, I also show you my interpretation.

I have accepted Dr. Joseph Murphy's explanation.
He has said like this.

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands ...(Ephesians 5:22).
The wife in the Bible is your subconscious mind, and the husband is the conscious mind.
Psychologically speaking, the subconscious (wife) is subject to the conscious mind (husband).
This, of course, is not true in their personal relationship.
All of us operate the male and female principle within us."

(Within you is the power, by Dr. Joseph Murphy, DeVorss and Company, Inc., Marina del Rey, California, 1977. pp. 103, 104)

Where do you live in the country?
If you live in the U.S., that is the home of the "New Thought" Churches.
But, in Japan, there is no such church.

Well, I do not interpret the Bible literally.
And, I am not a fundamentalist.
But, probably, I am a person who is particular about Greek more than you. LOL

In the standpoint of my belief (for me, since the wife means the subconscious), I do not care about whether that is an "imperative."
But my explanation "that is not the imperative mood" may be help for people who do not interpret symbolically like me.

Paul did use the imperative mood to "Slaves" (Eph 6:5), and "Fathers" (Eph 6:4), and "Children" (Eph 6:1), and "Husband" (Eph 5:33).
But, he did not use the imperative mood to the "wife/Sisters" (Eph 5:33).
Moreover, If you look at the Greek text of "Eph 5:22", he is not using even the word "submit/ in subjection."
That is, he has chosen the word very carefully, when telling about the "wife/Sisters."
But, people who read the "NIV" in English cannot notice that.

possible

41

"the wife should have deep respect for her husband" (Eph 5:33)

by Wonderment in

does anyone here think this command still applies in force today as it did 2000 years ago?.

possible-san

Wonderment.

Thank you for replying.

However, I feel you have ignored the bible versions I cited that reflects Paul's strong exhortation at Eph. 5:33.

Yeah.
I do not agree with those Bible versions/translations.
but I suppose that you knew it from the start well.

But I quoted a certain translation.
That is, the "International Standard Version."

Well, for me, those Bible versions are not "ultimate/absolute authority."
If they are "ultimate authority" for you, you do not need to learn Greek.

I never said that Paul used a strict imperative, but a "substitute" imperative, or as a grammarian calls it, "a practical imperative."
Why use that instead of a straight imperative?

I think that I have explained the basis of my assertion to you, even if you do not agree with that.
Moreover, I said your explanation regarding "a practical imperative" is right/correct.

Perhaps, because it is kinder to say, "the wife should have deep respect* for her husband," instead of saying: "Fear your husbands!"
Which sounds better?

I think that this comparison is strange.
Your assertion is that (Eph 5:33) is the "imperative."
And my assertion is that (Eph 5:33) is not the "imperative mood."

In English, we adapt our approach all the time when we give advice to others, so as not to sound too harsh.
Hey, who wants to get a woman upset? I think that is what Paul did here.

I beg to differ.
I do not agree with your opinion.

First of all, in this thread, you would want to say that we should not apply that trashy advice (Eph 5:33), won't you?
You said, "Does anyone here think this command still applies in force today as it did 2000 years ago?"http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/214754/1/the-wife-should-have-deep-respect-for-her-husband-Eph-5-33

And many people who speak English in this forum showed rejection to that Paul's advice.
It is because that is a "tone of command", IMO.

possible

41

"the wife should have deep respect for her husband" (Eph 5:33)

by Wonderment in

does anyone here think this command still applies in force today as it did 2000 years ago?.

possible-san

Wonderment.

Thank you for replying.

Well, although it seems that you have a ability to investigate Greek, there is no persuasiveness in your explanation. (I feel

A Greek Grammar of the NT...: "387...(3) As a substitute for the imperative, in addition to the subjunctive...hina with the subjunctive is also occasionally employed...E[phesians] 5:33 (after agapáto) he de gune hina phobetai ton andra..." (Blass &Debrunner, Robert W. Funk, p. 195)

Thank you for quoting.

Well, my assertion is clear.
That Greek word "phobeetai" is NOT the "imperative mood" clearly.
Therefore, strictly speaking, that is not imperative sentence.
You quoted like this first, "she may be fearing."

I showed you the examples that is used like an imperative/command in English, although it is not the imperative mood.
("I want you to respect your husband."
"Will you respect your husband? "
"Would you respect your husband?")

The Apostle Paul did not use the "imperative mood."
He avoided carefully using the "imperative mood."Although it seems like an imperative, if it is translated into "should/must", it will not be conveyed that "Paul did avoid carefully using the imperative mood."

Not really!It is one good way to express what Paul was exhorting. Various grammarians explain phobetai in the "passive" voice (where the subject receives the action of the verb), or as a "middle" voice (the action of a verse in the middle voice in some way affects the subject) or as passive deponent. (Deponent=a verb that is middle or passive in form but active in meaning.) A grammarian, Mounce, explains the middle voice can be "difficult" to deal with or explain.

I cannot understand your explanation at all.

First, if it is as your explanation, it is not "Paul was exhorting."
Rather, your assertion is "imperative."

And your explanation about "voice" is meaningless.
I quote your words once again.

"hina phobetai" is a present passive subjunctive. Thus, the rendering, "should have deep respect for her husband," reflects the Greek text well.

First, you did emphasize "passive."
Second, you said, "Thus."
And, you did defend the NWT.
You explain nothing about this.

With regard to the "passive deponent", it is what I wanted to point out regarding your mistake.

possible

41

"the wife should have deep respect for her husband" (Eph 5:33)

by Wonderment in

does anyone here think this command still applies in force today as it did 2000 years ago?.

possible-san

Wonderment.

"Thus" is like saying: therefore, consequently, along these lines, so, hence, etc.

Thanks.
But I did not question you about the meaning of that word "Thus".Therefore, probably, I was not able to understand your explanation, even if you used the word "therefore""so."

Once again, I quote your words.

"hina phobetai" is a present passive subjunctive. Thus, the rendering, "should have deep respect for her husband," reflects the Greek text well.

I tried to say, "there is no logic/logical in your explanation, and therefore, it is meaningless."

Furthermore, you emphasized in italics the word "passive."
You explain nothing about this.
And, you also ignored my question regarding the NWT.

At Eph 5:33, Paul is not expressing just a simple wish, but by using hina with phobetai and the other words, it becomes kind of a practical imperative.

I think that this your explanation is right/correct.
But, this is NOT the "imperative mood."
Therefore, I think that the meanings of the original word will completely disappear if it is translated into "should", IMO.

Probably, there are various expressions, even when you give order to someone.
For instance, ...
"Respect your husband, please."
"I want you to respect your husband."
"Will you respect your husband? "
"Would you respect your husband?".

I think that that (Eph 5:33) is the reticent/moderate instruction/request to wives by Paul.

possible

41

"the wife should have deep respect for her husband" (Eph 5:33)

by Wonderment in

does anyone here think this command still applies in force today as it did 2000 years ago?.

possible-san

Wonderment.

Thank you for your reply.
Well, since I do not speak English, it is difficult to express Greek technical terms in English.

The Greek literally says: ‘that she may be fearing the man’ - Concordant Greek Text.

Probably, this English expression is not telling everything about the Greek meanings.

Since I do not speak English, I don't know whether I can express the proper English, but the Greek word "hina" expresses a "wish" and means "I wish you to do it" (I wish you would respect your husband).

Moreover, as you quoted, the meaning of Greek word "phobeetai" is "she may be fearing."
In this case, there are a possibility and freedom that she does not fear/respect for her husband.
I think that you have ignored that.

"hina phobetai" is a present passive subjunctive. Thus, the rendering, "should have deep respect for her husband," reflects the Greek text well.

I do not understand your word "Thus."
Are you emphasizing the part "passive voice"?
Would you explain in more detail?

Well, the Greek word "phobeetai" is a verb.
Is "deep respect" in the NWT a verb?

possible

41

"the wife should have deep respect for her husband" (Eph 5:33)

by Wonderment in

does anyone here think this command still applies in force today as it did 2000 years ago?.

possible-san

Well, I think that that Greek ("hina phobeetai") should be translated like the "International Standard Version."
That is, it is "may the wife fear her husband", and is not "should have deep respect."
http://bible.cc/ephesians/5-33.htm

And in Eph 5:22, there is no word "subjection" in the Greek text.
In Eph 5:21, that behavior is "to one another" (Greek; alleelois).

Well, although I have accepted "higher criticism", I think that Paulo wrote Ephesians, IMO.

possible

7

iPhoneAP "PUFF!" (lift girls' skirt; Probably, this software may be pleasant for all men)

by possible-san in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rvgq40zw3c.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5-cipdm9v4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqhmvgjzmck.

possible-san

Is Canada a country superior to Japan?
You will be kidded if you are kidding other people.

Just For Laughs (A TV program in Canada)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2dV-rxmiBg

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/entertainment/201383/1/Just-For-Laughs-A-TV-program-in-Canada

possible

7

iPhoneAP "PUFF!" (lift girls' skirt; Probably, this software may be pleasant for all men)

by possible-san in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rvgq40zw3c.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5-cipdm9v4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqhmvgjzmck.

possible-san

shamus100.

Lame.

I see.
In Japanese, "Lame" means as "dasai."

Well, probably, in this forum, I cannot post the softwares which are more lascivious and interesting than this. LOL
(Probably, moderators will not allow them.)

And, regarding many of those softwares for adults, the export to overseas is banned.
(Probably, in your country and in my country, since laws are different.)

That is, many of foreigners do not know good softwares "for adults" in Japan.
Therefore, you should not think that I am introducing the best products in Japan to you.

possible

7

iPhoneAP "PUFF!" (lift girls' skirt; Probably, this software may be pleasant for all men)

by possible-san in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rvgq40zw3c.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5-cipdm9v4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqhmvgjzmck.

possible-san

Paralipomenon.

Is Canada an exception for you?

And, for you, is that word "nerds" insult expression to Japan?