hooberus

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Posts by hooberus

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  76

  Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

  by Lilycurly in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

  (amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

  it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  Im still reading "The Pagan Christ", finding some interesting things in it:

  http://www.tektonics.org/harpur01.html
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  76

  Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

  by Lilycurly in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

  (amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

  it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  So Tacitus would fall under this category:

  2. The frequent use of post-christian pagan sources.

  I guess you can't call it post christian, but it was certainly after the fact.

  Sherry

  You miss the point. No one is claiming that Christianity was "copied" from Tacitus (but instead that Tacitus was a valid Roman historian who relatively shortly following the event mentioned in a historical context the death of Jesus under the Roman Pilate).
• 
  76

  Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

  by Lilycurly in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

  (amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

  it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  For a discussion of references to Jesus outside the Bible see here:

  http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html

  We conclude that we find three levels of source material:

  • Highly reliable sources. There are two of these: Tacitus and Josephus.
  • Moderately reliable sources. We find three: Thallus, Pliny, and Lucian. For the matter of Thallus, please see also our link in our essay to Glenn Miller's essay on that subject, linked in our essay. (We will look at some objections to the Thallus cite.)
  • Marginally reliable or unreliable sources. Three are in this class: Suetonius, the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, and the Talmud.

  Another early source mentioned by Justin Martyr (147 A.D.) was a document apparenty extant in his day called the "Acts of Pontius Pilate" as a historical reference for the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate. Such a document would have been written near the time of the crucifixion event.

  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3765_686292 The First Apology of Justin
  
  Chapter XXXV.-Other Fulfilled Prophecies.

  And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. 71

  71 aktwn . These Acts of Pontius Pilate, or regular accounts of his procedure sent by Pilate to the Emporer Tiberius, are supposed to have been destroyed at an early period, possibly in consequence of the unanswerable appeals which the Christians constantly made to them. There exists a forgery in imitation of these Acts. See Trollope.
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  22

  G.B. members hand picked DIRECTLY by Jehovah

  by SeymourButts in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i was in the process of looking up an article, when i came across this little gem.

  jehovah appoints the "governing body" himself, directly!

  not only that, but the "organization" is under "the immediate direction of jehovah god himself" .

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  hooberus

  For more info:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/68555/1.ashx
• 
  22

  G.B. members hand picked DIRECTLY by Jehovah

  by SeymourButts in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i was in the process of looking up an article, when i came across this little gem.

  jehovah appoints the "governing body" himself, directly!

  not only that, but the "organization" is under "the immediate direction of jehovah god himself" .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  • The WT claims that until 1972 the GB was synomous with the corporate board of directors:

  "From the incorporation of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania in 1884 until 1972, the president of the Society exercised great authority in Jehovah's organization, while the Governing Body was closely associated with the Society's board of Directors." Watchtower 5-15-1997 p. 17
  

  "To give the Bible Students legal status, Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society was incorporated in 1884 in the United States, with headquarters in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Its directors served as a central Governing Body, overseeing the global preaching of God's Kingdom." Watchtower 2-1-1999 p.17
  "There were legal requirements involved in publishing magazines and other Bible study aids. Hence, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society was set up and registered in the state of Pennsylvania, U.S.A. For years, the visible Governing Body came to be identified with the seven-member board of directors of this corporation established to publish the Bible study aids needed and used by the Lords people earth wide." Watchtower 3-15-1990
  

  
  

  • The WT also claims that even though the GB was synomous the board of directors that they didn't owe their position on the GB due to being elected- but instead that their GB authority came not from being elected but from being "appointed through the holy spirit under the direction of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ".

  "The Societys seven directors were faithful Christians. But their role in a legal corporation might have suggested that they owed their positions on the Governing Body to their being elected by legal members of the Watch Tower Society. . . . As already mentioned, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania has a board of directors limited to seven members. These dedicated Christian men are elected for three-year terms by corporation members totaling no more than 500, the majority of whom are not anointed Christians. Moreover, since the corporations existence is purely legal, with a fixed geographic headquarters, it can be dissolved by Caesar, that is, the State. (Mark 12:17) However, the Governing Body is not a legal instrument. Its members are not elected. They are appointed through the holy spirit under the direction of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. (Compare Acts 20:28.) Moreover, those making up the Governing Body are spirit-appointed men without any obligatory fixed geographic location or headquarters." Watchtower 3-15-1990

  • The problem- when one examines the Societies Proclaimers history book one finds that in 1917 four of the seven directors (a majority!) opposed Rutherford. Rutherfords response was to remove them on the basis of not being elected under corporate law.

  "A few, especially at headquarters, actually resented Brother Rutherford. The fact that the work was moving ahead and that he was making every effort to follow the arrangements that had been put in place by Russell did not seem to impress them. Opposition soon mounted. Four members of the board of directors of the Society went so far as to endeavor to wrest administrative control from Rutherfords hands."

  ". . . Tuesday, July 17, 1917. On that same occasion, a startling announcement was made the four opposing directors had been removed, and Brother Rutherford had appointed four others to fill the vacancies. What was the reaction?"

  "But Brother Rutherford had a sound basis for the action he had taken. How so? It turned out that although the four opposing directors had been appointed by Brother Russell, these appointments had never been confirmed by vote of the corporation members at the annual meeting of the Society. Therefore, the four of them were not legal members of the board of directors at all! Rutherford had been aware of this but had not mentioned it at first. Why not? He had wanted to avoid giving the impression that he was going against Brother Russells wishes. However, when it became evident that they would not discontinue their opposition, Rutherford acted within his authority and responsibility as president to replace them with four others whose appointments were to be confirmed at the next annual meeting, to be held in January 1918."

  • Conclusion: On one hand the modern WT society tells us that even though for most of the Societies history that the GB was synomous with the board of directors, that they really received their authority from an "appointment" from Jehovah, and not from their legal position a a director. However on the other hand the Society also excuses the forced removal of the majority in 1917 as due to legal position issues. Thus, if the societies claim is true that ". . . the Governing Body is not a legal instrument. Its members are not elected. They are appointed through the holyspirit under the direction of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ"- then in 1917 the majority of the GB (which had been "appointed" by Jehovah) was thrown out based on a legal position technicality.
• 
  76

  Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

  by Lilycurly in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

  (amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

  it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  So, hooberus, you have read each of these sources quoted and can answer unequivacably (I can say it, I just can't spell it!) that each one of them is deficit in the areas you outlined? Please cross reference, I'd like to see it. All your arguments seem to be generalizations. Be specific.

  Generalizations are, alas, just that.

  Sherry

  I have on previous threads on this subject gone into more detail see for example: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/63458/1.ashx Furthermore the links that I provided earlier address many more claimed specifics.
• 
  76

  Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

  by Lilycurly in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

  (amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

  it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  hooberus

  I suspect that the most truth lies somewhere in between. A parallel does not necessarily have to equal the other item but just bear a number of similar qualities.

  A parallel doesn't have to be exact to be a parallel- however, it should be parallel enough to substantiate the claims made regarding it. The "Christ mythers" not only claim parallels but actual borrowing. The so-called "parallels" offered by them are either usually are not very parallel all (relying on equivocation in terminology), come from post-christian sources, lack primary source documentation, etc.

  There is a formula that is invoked in many, many mythologies involving birth, death and rebirth. The cycle in the Horus mythology parallels that of the Jesus mythology.

  Response to the alleged parallels between Horus and Jesus. http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
• 
  76

  Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

  by Lilycurly in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

  (amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

  it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  I'm reading a book and this morning I got to a part where it claimed that the life of Jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods. (Amongst them Osiris, Dionysos, Attis, Adonis, Bacchus and Mithra.)

  The problem with these so called "copied" "parallels" is that:

  1. They frequently are really non-parallel and only become seemingly "parallel" by the use of equivocation in terminiology (such as defining death by an arrow as "crucifixion", etc.).

  2. The frequent use of post-christian pagan sources.

  3. The use of completely unsubstantied/undocumented claims.

  4. The fallacy that similarities must have come from dependance.

  5. Ignoring or dismissing (without valid merit) the substantial historical evidence for the existence and life of Jesus Christ (for example the crucifixion under Pilate is documented in several extra-bibilcal and secular sources as well as multiple biblical authors.).

  http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

  http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/Jesuschrist.asp
• 
  51

  Trinity pamphlet, - a response & research

  by Kristofer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'm not sure how much of this is old news to y'all but after being handed this literature, i was trying to find evidence on the ante-nicene fathers it quotes in this pamphlet.

  i figured, if early christians didn't believe in it, then, to me anyway, the doctrine held some water.

  i stumbled upon this essay by eric francke which is a direct response to the pamphlet and very well written in my opinion.

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  hooberus

  The following has some citation quote information regarding the society brochure:

  http://www.gospeldefense.org/pdfs/a004.pdf
• 
  8

  When was genesis compiled?

  by IP_SEC in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  .

  the book is probably a compilation of folk stories, several different hebrew traditions, and adaptations of the legends of neighboring societies.

  around what year was genesis probably compiled?.

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  hooberus

  http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i4/moses.asp