Posts by hooberus

66

Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank in

in 1989 the watchtower society published a 32-page booklet entitled "should you believe in the trinity?

" the aim of this publication was to discredit the christian doctrine of the triune nature of god.

the method that the society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors.

hooberus

RevFrank: If the WTS does misrepresent the writers that they quote, maybe they're following the example set by the gospel writer Matthew, who BLATANTLY misrepresents the OT writers that he quotes in trying to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. Compare Matt 2:15 with Hosea 11:1, and Matthew 2:18 with Jeremiah 31:15. If Jesus really was the Messiah why did Matthew have to resort to such obvious 'spin'? Are you going to criticise Matthew just as severely as you criticise the WTS?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/baduseot.html http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fabprof0.html

35

Mormons: Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted

by AMNESIAN in

compare: "1914" and "no-blood" bedrock doctrines of the wbts:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-mormon16feb16,0,5561316.story?coll=la-home-headlines

from the time he was a child in peru, the mormon church instilled in jose a. loayza the conviction that he and millions of other native americans were descended from a lost tribe of israel that reached the new world more than 2,000 years ago.. .

hooberus

BOM describes a migration from Asia at the time of Tower of Babel - that population numbers millions by time the Israelites arrive (numbering in the tens.) The Israelites are described as having cities way before they would have been able to breed that many people which suggests an immediate mingling with other people. The Israelites ae pared back by war several times to only a few hundred and these then intermingle with a group of principally phoenicians with very little Israelite blood. In all this time there is nothing that says that there weren't migrations from Asia at a constant rate. All in all I'd be stunned if you found any Israelite blood in the US according to a strict reading of the BOM. On the other hand the author of the BOM (assuming it wasn't Joseph Smith on trippy time) didn't make any distinction between races when referring to different groups - in fact it seems that the major distinction is political (i.e. if a city changes hands in battle so its citizens change designator - not the way we would normally describe it) so to that style of author you could easily claim Israelite heritage for all when in reality its a notional concept.

http://www.irr.org/mit/Lamanites-DNA-Book-of-Mormon.html

4

DNA rocks the Mormon "boat"

by Kenneson in

jw
friends

there is an ongoing controversy that is making waves in the mormon church.

many converts, who are native americans and those from the south pacific, the polynesians, were led to believe that they were the ancestors of ancient hebrews.

now dna evidence is putting all that into question and some are leaving the faith.

hooberus

http://www.irr.org/mit/Lamanites-DNA-Book-of-Mormon.html

16

Watchtower Michael changes

by hooberus in

position 1. michael is an angel that woships jesus.

" hence it is said, "let all the angels of god worship him;" [that must include michael, the chief angel, hence michael is not the son of god] and the reason is, because he has "by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

" michael or gabriel are perhaps grander names than jesus, though jesus is grand in its very simplicity, but the official character of the son of god as saviour and king is the inheritance from his father, which is far superior to theirs, for it pleased the father that in him all fullness should dwell.

hooberus

Has anybody done a similar catalog of flip-flops for the "will the inhabitants of Sodom & Gomorrah be saved" question?
Are there other such flip-flop summaries?

David Reed's book "Index of Watchtower Errors" contains much in this way. Also the publications of witnessinc. have been a helpful resource for me on the Michael issue as well as others.

16

Watchtower Michael changes

by hooberus in

position 1. michael is an angel that woships jesus.

" hence it is said, "let all the angels of god worship him;" [that must include michael, the chief angel, hence michael is not the son of god] and the reason is, because he has "by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

" michael or gabriel are perhaps grander names than jesus, though jesus is grand in its very simplicity, but the official character of the son of god as saviour and king is the inheritance from his father, which is far superior to theirs, for it pleased the father that in him all fullness should dwell.

hooberus

If the above is correct then a Summary of WT teachings would be:

Position # 1. Michael is an angel that woships Jesus. Michael is not the Son of God.

JULY, 1879 (reprint page 9). NOVEMBER, 1879 (reprint page 48.)

Position # 2. The Michael of Revelation is different than the Michael of Daniel. The Michael of Revelation is the the pope (the Antichrist). DECEMBER, 1879 DECEMBER, 1881 (reprint page 306.)

Position # 3. Michael is Jesus Christ. (The Michael of Jude and Daniel). JUNE, 1883 (reprint page 490.)

Position # 4. Michael of Revelation 12 continues to be the pope. The Finished Mystery 1917 (page 188) until sometime later 30's? when all references to Michael are applied to Jesus Christ.

UNDER CONSTRUCTION

16

Watchtower Michael changes

by hooberus in

position 1. michael is an angel that woships jesus.

" hence it is said, "let all the angels of god worship him;" [that must include michael, the chief angel, hence michael is not the son of god] and the reason is, because he has "by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

" michael or gabriel are perhaps grander names than jesus, though jesus is grand in its very simplicity, but the official character of the son of god as saviour and king is the inheritance from his father, which is far superior to theirs, for it pleased the father that in him all fullness should dwell.

hooberus

Position 2. Michael is the the pope. Michael is the Antichrist.
DECEMBER, 1879
"Michael and his angels"--the papacy and its supporters--fought against the dragon--pagan rulers, etc.,-- and the great dragon was cast out of heaven. This conflict between Papal and Pagan power resulted, as we have seen, in the overthrow of the latter.
B. But does it not seem a forced construction to suppose Michael to symbolize the "Man of Sin?" Is not this the same Michael referred to in `Dan. 12`? If it is a symbol in one case, is it not in the other?

Antichrist, but on turning to a dictionary we find that the meaning of the word Michael is-- "Who as God." It is quite remarkable that the meaning should be in such close accord with Paul's description -- "He as God sitteth in the temple of God," etc. When the dragon was cast out of heaven (out of the ruling position) it left this one ("Who as God,") in control, or in the heavens, and from him issues the "loud voice" (great proclamation) of `verses 10,11 and 12`; that is, Papacy claimed that when it assumed control "the kingdom of God and the power of his anointed," had come to the world. They claimed that they had overcome by the blood of the Lamb, their lives and testimonies. "Therefore, rejoice ye heavens." (Let Papacy and all connected therewith rejoice.) "Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, etc." As the church had once been persecuted when Paganism reigned, so now when she reigns she makes the Pagans and heretics suffer. This, papacy claims as the millennium, during which it broke in pieces the kingdoms with the rod of iron.
for same arcticle see also DECEMBER, 1881 (reprint page 306).

After a review I think that this arcticle indicates that the WT may have taught for a while that the Michael of Revelation and Daniel were two different entities (as opposed to today whwre they teach that they are the same).

76

Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

by Lilycurly in

i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

(amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

hooberus

Im still reading "The Pagan Christ", finding some interesting things in it:

http://www.tektonics.org/harpur01.html

76

Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

by Lilycurly in

i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

(amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

hooberus

So Tacitus would fall under this category:
2. The frequent use of post-christian pagan sources.
I guess you can't call it post christian, but it was certainly after the fact.
Sherry

You miss the point. No one is claiming that Christianity was "copied" from Tacitus (but instead that Tacitus was a valid Roman historian who relatively shortly following the event mentioned in a historical context the death of Jesus under the Roman Pilate).

76

Jesus = Ancient Pagan gods??

by Lilycurly in

i'm reading a book and this morning i got to a part where it claimed that the life of jesus was very similar, if no downright copied on ancient pagan myths of different men-gods.

(amongst them osiris, dionysos, attis, adonis, bacchus and mithra.).

it said that in the different versions of the stories these elements could be found:.

hooberus

For a discussion of references to Jesus outside the Bible see here:

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html

We conclude that we find three levels of source material:
Highly reliable sources. There are two of these: Tacitus and Josephus.
Moderately reliable sources. We find three: Thallus, Pliny, and Lucian. For the matter of Thallus, please see also our link in our essay to Glenn Miller's essay on that subject, linked in our essay. (We will look at some objections to the Thallus cite.)
Marginally reliable or unreliable sources. Three are in this class: Suetonius, the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, and the Talmud.

Another early source mentioned by Justin Martyr (147 A.D.) was a document apparenty extant in his day called the "Acts of Pontius Pilate" as a historical reference for the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate. Such a document would have been written near the time of the crucifixion event.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3765_686292 The First Apology of Justin

Chapter XXXV.-Other Fulfilled Prophecies.

And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. 71

71 aktwn . These Acts of Pontius Pilate, or regular accounts of his procedure sent by Pilate to the Emporer Tiberius, are supposed to have been destroyed at an early period, possibly in consequence of the unanswerable appeals which the Christians constantly made to them. There exists a forgery in imitation of these Acts. See Trollope.

22

G.B. members hand picked DIRECTLY by Jehovah

by SeymourButts in

i was in the process of looking up an article, when i came across this little gem.

jehovah appoints the "governing body" himself, directly!

not only that, but the "organization" is under "the immediate direction of jehovah god himself" .

hooberus

For more info:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/68555/1.ashx