Posts by hooberus

47

Intelligent Design Clobbered Again

by AlanF in

jehovah's witnesses seem to have drifted toward the political notion of "intelligent design" in recent years.

several times since 1996 their literature has referenced the book darwin's black box by michael behe, which book has become a kind of bible for iders.

the book introduces the notion of "irreducible complexity" in a formal way as disprove of evolution.

hooberus

Atheist Dawkins attacks ID theorist Behe, but comes short (weekend feedback):
Antitheists argue against any challenge to their materialism, but use many fallacies to do so. Richard Dawkins is a prime example in his recent tirade against Michael Behe. More …

http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/5213

47

Intelligent Design Clobbered Again

by AlanF in

jehovah's witnesses seem to have drifted toward the political notion of "intelligent design" in recent years.

several times since 1996 their literature has referenced the book darwin's black box by michael behe, which book has become a kind of bible for iders.

the book introduces the notion of "irreducible complexity" in a formal way as disprove of evolution.

hooberus

Hooberus,
Many of us have asked this question of you on numerous occasions, without an answer as of this moment.
Why did God create a Universe where everything feeds on everything else to survive?
From the smallest microbe, to the largest of mammals everything traps and feeds its prey to survive. Think of a virus or parasite, as it struggles to survive in its chosen host, the fly. Think of a spider sucking the life from its paralysed prey, the fly. Think of the sparrow which picks at the spider and eats it alive. Think of the cat that stalks and captures the sparrow. I think you get my drift.

I guess I thought that if any one sincerely desired an answer (from a biblical creationist perspective) on matters such as these [e.g. death, suffering, parasites, viruses, cancer, germs, fangs, claws, etc.], then they could: 1). simply consult any one of several introductory creationist books: (such as listed here: http://www.trueorigin.org/books.asp or here: http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4884/113 ) or 2).use thesearch function on any major scientific creationist website.

Given the fact that many of the evolutionists here constantly lecture others about speaking about things before study one would think that they themselves would be a little more well versed on all the origins subjects that they speak of.

Why did God create this self-perpetuating and brutal horror? How does the 'creation' make the 'fool' conclude that God is Love?

Do you have a scripture says that the present 'creation' is to "make the 'fool' conclude that God is Love"?

Furthermore, how can atheists even claim that there is necessarily anything evil or wrong about such things, given that their own belief system doesn't provide an objective means of determining evil, or wrong [that is if such items even truely exists under such a system to begin with]:

It’s often useful to ask a questioner to justify the validity of his question under his own belief system. For an atheist to complain that the Christian God is ‘evil,’ he must provide a standard of good and evil by which to judge Him. But if we are simply evolved pond scum, as a consistent atheist must believe, where can we find an objective standard of right and wrong?
Our ideas of right and wrong, under this system, are merely outcomes of some chemical processes that occur in the brain, which happened to confer survival advantage on our alleged ape-like ancestors. But the notions in Hitler’s brain obeyed the same chemical laws as those in Mother Teresa’s, so on what grounds are the latter’s actions ‘better’ than the former’s? Also, why should the terrorist attack slaying thousands of people in New York be more terrible than a frog killing thousands of flies? http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3774

47

Intelligent Design Clobbered Again

by AlanF in

jehovah's witnesses seem to have drifted toward the political notion of "intelligent design" in recent years.

several times since 1996 their literature has referenced the book darwin's black box by michael behe, which book has become a kind of bible for iders.

the book introduces the notion of "irreducible complexity" in a formal way as disprove of evolution.

hooberus

Persons who advocate that their brains are ultimately the result of random mutations filtered inefficiently by a gross, non-intelligently guided, purposeless, short term reproductive success only process, [which can be reasonably termed "unintelligent design"] and which is likely incapable of even preserving existing genetic information [due to deleterious effects which can easily overwhelm any hypothetical gain] should perhaps be cautious about calling others "ID-ots" etc.

Furthermore, while it is true that not all intelligent design theorists are also young earth creationists [e.g. Behe], the fact remains that all creationists (obviously) are believers in intelligent design [hense the recommendation of many ID resources by young earth creation science groups such as ICR and the Creation Reseach Society http://www.creationresearch.org]. Therefore, the recommendation or use of some ID scientist resources or certain specific arguments by persons (such as myself) certainly does not mean that a recent creationist position is no longer also advocated.

27

"The Red Corvette" problem -- a disconnect in view points

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

in another thread, a poster brought up what he called "the red corvette" problem.

the problem, he said, is that if you are a true atheist, you must believe that a red corvette could simply form out of nothing.

if you believe life originated from nothing, then you must believe that a less-complicated machine such as a sports car could also have originated from nothing.

hooberus

Every chance change to the "children" of the replicator would confer greater or lesser survivability on those children. The ones that "survived" (again, we're not talking life, so these are conceptual terms) would have been able to replicate more, and so pass on those traits to their children.
But what if the overwhelming number of possible changes either confer no survivability change* or a lesser survivability? In such a likely situation "natural selection" [even if aided with the very,very rare additon of a beneficial mutation], would then only slow the inevitable loss of information and degeneration to extinction of this primitive life.

Edited to: But what if the overwhelming number of possible changes confer either no informational level change* or else a reduction in the genomic information level ? In such a likely situation "natural selection" [even if aided with the rare additon of a beneficial mutation], would then only slow the inevitable loss of information and ultimate degeneration of life.

for how even "beneficial" mutations can cause a reduction in information content see: http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/41/41_4/bact_resist.htm http://www.trueorigin.org/mutations01.asp *According to Cornell professor Sanford even most "neutral" changes even today are not really truely neutral but actually slightly informationally deleterious. "Genetic Entropy & The Mystery of the Genome" available from http://www.creationresearch.org

27

"The Red Corvette" problem -- a disconnect in view points

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

in another thread, a poster brought up what he called "the red corvette" problem.

the problem, he said, is that if you are a true atheist, you must believe that a red corvette could simply form out of nothing.

if you believe life originated from nothing, then you must believe that a less-complicated machine such as a sports car could also have originated from nothing.

hooberus

A few comments:

Abiogenesis -- if it occurred, and there's no proof that it did -- would not have produced a corvette, or any biological equivalent. It would have produced something that we wouldn't today classify as life. It would have been a rudimentary replicating system. The equivalent of producing a well-rounded stick, as opposed to a sports car. If you came upon a stick that was pretty round and rolled pretty well, you might conclude it was a manufactured dowel rod. Or you might conclude it happened by chance. It wouldn't be such a spectacular find that you'd be all that awfully impressed either way.

I disagree with the phrase "the equivalent of producing a well-rounded stick, as opposed to a sports car", as it underestimates the complexity required of life.

Once this replicator came into being, natural selection would have allowed it to grow and evolve into higher forms.

It not often realized that even if a self-replicating system did somehow once come into being, that any sustained life would not necessarily be a likely result. Things such as hostile environmental factors, destructive reactions, etc, make rapid "extinction" probably a far more likely result for the emergent "life" and/or any small descendent population. The saying by some that "all it takes is for life to form once", overlooks many things.

Every chance change to the "children" of the replicator would confer greater or lesser survivability on those children. The ones that "survived" (again, we're not talking life, so these are conceptual terms) would have been able to replicate more, and so pass on those traits to their children.

But what if the overwhelming number of possible changes either confer no survivability change* or a lesser survivability? In such a likely situation "natural selection" [even if aided with the very,very rare additon of a beneficial mutation], would then only slow the inevitable loss of information and degeneration to extinction of this primitive life. *According to Cornell professor Sanford even most "neutral" changes even today are not really truely neutral but actually slightly deleterious. For more information see: http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3028 Also see "Genetic Entropy & The Mystery of the Genome" and "The Biotic Message" both available from http://www.creationresearch.org

39

Answering an evolutionist argument.

by hooberus in

the world is full of complex biological systems (for one example see below):.

here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision.

when light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal.

hooberus

Abaddon said:

It is unbelivable that Creationists can think their argument against evolution ("design requires a designer") is NOT a fallacy simply because they say "but in this case our postulated designer doesn't need a designer because we say so".

You are dropping the qualifying characters (which are either explicit or implicit in virtually all ID theories) when you represent the ID argument merely as "design requires a designer".

Note how changes affect the following hypothetical argument:

A. The design of complex electrionic equipment (composed of componet parts), that has an origin requires an intelligent designer.

B. ~~The~~ design ~~of complex electroinc equipment (composed of componet parts), that has an origin~~ requires an intelligent designer.

Note how the dropping of the qualifiers from example A changes the argument of those who advocate A into an caricature (example B.). It is then easier for a design opponet to falsely claim (based on B.) that this design example argument requires either 1.) an infinite regression of designers, or 2.) that the design advocates are engaged in "special pleading" if they then (in response to an opponets attempted inclusion of all designers) try to exclude any designer of any type from also "requiring an intelligent designer".

Rather than vague caricatures ID opponets would do better to respond to specific ID theories like the following one (doing so taking into account its explicit qualifying characteristics [It should again be noted that virtually all ID arguments have either explicit or obvious implicit qualifiers.]: "An intelligent designer is necessary for the origin of biological life from non-life" I think that they will find it much more difficult to convince others that "design" arguments require logical fallacies.

39

Answering an evolutionist argument.

by hooberus in

the world is full of complex biological systems (for one example see below):.

here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision.

when light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal.

hooberus

Dantheman said:

Hooberus,
I think you missed my point. Saying that God is some unobserved, unobserveable, non-mechanical something that had no beginning is an unverifiable, untestable, 'because I say so' assertion. It proves nothing.

And the point that you miss is that specific design theory statements such as: "An intelligent designer is necessary for the origin of biological life from non-life."; "An intelligent designer is necessary for the origin of complex biological systems (composed of componet parts) from non-complexity."; "An intelligent designer is necessary for the origin of complex electronic machines from non-complexity" etc., are not in themselves meant to discuss the characteristics of the designer at all- but instead are testable scientific formulations (often supported by accompanying scientific evidences).

Furthermore, there is nothing in such statements that requires the designer to also share the characteristics of the things in question (such as also being an "electronic machine" themself), hense there is no required infinite regression of "intelligent designers"designers in such arguments.

Now if the proponet of such statements as given above were to attempt to exclude for an irrevelant reason [like color] something that also is either observed to, or believed by them to also share in the above design arguments qualifying characters (such a having an origin and being a biological life)-then they would in fact be engaged in "special pleading". However, if they exclude nothing that is either observed, nor believed to have an origin and biological life [the statements qualifying characters] from the requirement, then they are not engading in any special pleading.

As to the issue of the origin, (or non-origin) of God [which some evolutionists frequently attempt to bring into discussions of the origin of the design of biological systems],- he is not either observed, nor believed by anyone (creationists, theistic evolutionists, and even atheistic evolutionists)*, to share in all the specific characteristics found in the specific design arguments (such as given above). Hense, its not special pleading for creationists (in response to evolutionists attempts to inject God into such biological design requirements) to point out that such specific design arguments are not applicable to God.

*atheistic evolutionists claim to have no belief in a real God at all (hense they don't believe in the existence of a real God being with any specific characteristics).

39

Answering an evolutionist argument.

by hooberus in

the world is full of complex biological systems (for one example see below):.

here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision.

when light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal.

hooberus

dawg said:

Again, this whole argument is a straw man, making up the argument of your opponent so you can easily knock it down... there are those that have addressed the evolution of the eye and don't say one word about the subject of god in the process.

I never said that the "logic" argument that I was answering in this thread was the sole argument that evolutionists use in regards to the formation of complex biological structures- but instead that it is used by some evolutionists. Since some evolutionists (here even) do use this very argument, I was not therefore "making up the argument" of my opponets to "easily knock it down."

39

Answering an evolutionist argument.

by hooberus in

the world is full of complex biological systems (for one example see below):.

here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision.

when light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal.

hooberus

Nor is it "special pleading" to "exempt" an eternal God (with no origin-who is also not believed to be composed of mechanical componet parts) from a such "design argument"- since the "design" requirement/and or "evidence of design" argument was only meant to deal with with observable items that have certain characteristics (such as an origin, ect.), and was never meant to even begin to deal with other types of entities that don't have such characteristics (such as non-mechanical existence).
You resolve your special pleading by resorting to an unproveable assertion - that there's some non-mechanical, unobserved, unobserveable something out there.
Perhaps such reasoning is an answer. Is it a good one? Not even close.

I engaged in no "special pleading" at all. Special pleading is trying exempt something from an argument by using an irrevelant excuse.

"The fallacy of Special Pleading occurs when someone argues that a case is an exception to a rule based upon an irrelevant characteristic that does not define an exception." http://www.fallacyfiles.org/specplea.html

For example if someone makes a hypothetical argument such as: "all mechanically complex systems that have a begining require an intelligent designer", and then tries to exempt a mechanically complex system that has a beginning from requiring a designer because it is "blue in color", then they have committed special pleading [color =irrevelant characteristic]. Thus the exemption was unjustified.

However, they would not be committing special pleading by exempting anything from the hypothetical argument if a revelant difference exists. For example (since the above hypothetical argument was specifically dealing with things that have a beginning), anything eternal [having no beginning] would not fall under it- and would thus not be an unjustified exemption.

39

Answering an evolutionist argument.

by hooberus in

the world is full of complex biological systems (for one example see below):.

here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision.

when light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal.

hooberus

The world is full of complex biological systems (for one example see below):

Here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision. When light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal. The change in the shape of retinal forces a change in the shape of the protein, rhodopsin, to which the retinal is tightly bound. The protein's metamorphosis alters its behavior, making it stick to another protein called transducin. Before bumping into activated rhodopsin, transducin had tightly bound a small molecule called GDP. But when transducin interacts with activated rhodopsin, the GDP falls off and a molecule called GTP binds to transducin. (GTP is closely related to, but critically different from, GDP.)

GTP-transducin-activated rhodopsin now binds to a protein called phosphodiesterase, located in the inner membrane of the cell. When attached to activated rhodopsin and its entourage, the phosphodiesterase acquires the ability to chemically cut a molecule called cGMP (a chemical relative of both GDP and GTP). Initially there are a lot of cGMP molecules in the cell, but the phosphodiesterase lowers its concentration, like a pulled plug lowers the water level in a bathtub.

Another membrane protein that binds cGMP is called an ion channel. It acts as a gateway that regulates the number of sodium ions in the cell. Normally the ion channel allows sodium ions to flow into the cell, while a separate protein actively pumps them out again. The dual action of the ion channel and pump keeps the level of sodium ions in the cell within a narrow range. When the amount of cGMP is reduced because of cleavage by the phosphodiesterase, the ion channel closes, causing the cellular concentration of positively charged sodium ions to be reduced. This causes an imbalance of charge across the cell membrane which, finally, causes a current to be transmitted down the optic nerve to the brain. The result, when interpreted by the brain, is vision.
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=51

Creationists believers, scientists (and ID proponets) point to the origin of such complex machinery (composed of many interworking componet parts) as evidence of /and or best explained as being the result of intelligent design. (Specific scientific arguments -such as probablity studies have also been provided for the origin of various biological items.)

Some evolutionists however claim that such an argument is logically invalid because for example "if design requires a designer -then the the designer himself would also require an even more complex designer ad infinitum, thus requiring an infinite regression of designers."

The problem with such an evolutionist argument is that it based on a misunderstanding/ misrepresentation of the design argument.

What they fail to take into account is that the design argument has always meant to deal specifically with directly observable items that 1.) are believed to have an origin and 2.) specific types of complexity (for example -machine like complexity-composed of componet parts- such as the vision system example provided above).

Since there is nothing in the design argument that requires the designer (wich creationists acknowledge to be God) to 1.) have an origin and/or 2.) an analogious type of complexity )such as machine like complexity composed of componet parts), there therefore is nothing in such argument that necessitates an infinite regression of designers.

Nor is it "special pleading" to "exempt" an eternal God (with no origin-who is also not believed to be composed of mechanical componet parts) from a such "design argument"- since the "design" requirement/and or "evidence of design" argument was only meant to deal with with observable items that have certain characteristics (such as an origin, ect.), and was never meant to even begin to deal with other types of entities that don't have such characteristics (such as non-mechanical existence).

The following (from a review of Dawkins) gives the same points:

http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4900/

The fact that Dawkins’ critiques of many carefully argued and long-standing arguments for God’s existence are dealt with in very few pages tells us more about the power of his own self-belief than the soundness of his refutations. For instance, arguments that invoke Thomas Aquinas’ ‘Unmoved Mover’ and ‘Uncaused Cause’ (or similar) are plain wrong, he says in a blatant ipse dixit, 7 because the implied/explicit infinite regress must also apply to God himself (p. 77–78) (although philosophers argue cogently that only that which has a beginning needs a cause).

Chapter 4 ‘contains the central argument of my book’, says Dawkins, and he gives a useful six-point summary of it (pp. 157–158). To précis this yet further: It is tempting to explain design using the watchmaker analogy but this is false because the Designer then needs an explanation (again misconstruing the designer as having a beginning in the first place, as well as explaining away the fact that God is not composed of different parts). Ergo, natural selection is the only option and we ‘can now safely say’ design is merely an illusion. An ultimate origin (i.e. of the universe itself) awaits a better explanation but the multiverse theory is favoured by Dawkins, even though the alleged other universes are not observable even in principle, so it is hardly a scientific theory. ‘We should not give up hope’ of finding ‘something as powerful as Darwinism is for biology’ to explain cosmology. That is basically all there is to the book’s central argument and anyone conversant with Dawkins’ previous writings (e.g. Climbing Mount Improbable) will find nothing novel here. 8
He does engage with Behe’s concept of irreducible complexity 9 —though very weakly indeed. After quoting from Darwin, he concedes,
‘The creationists are right that, if genuine irreducible complexity could be properly demonstrated, it would wreck Darwin’s theory. … But I can find no such case. … Many candidates for this holy grail of creationism have been proposed. None has stood up to analysis.’ (p. 125)
One wonders how thoroughly Dawkins has explored each case of claimed irreducible complexity. For instance, his attempt at a refutation of the bacterial flagellum motor is straight out of Kenneth Miller’s discredited book Finding Darwin’s God, an argument that is as fallacious as it is audacious. 10 Surprisingly he even gets his facts wrong, claiming that:
‘The flagellar motor of bacteria… drives the only known example, outside of human technology, of a freely rotating axle.’ (p. 130)
‘It has been happily described as a tiny outboard motor (although by engineering standards—and unusually for a biological mechanism—it is a spectacularly inefficient one.’ (pp. 130–131)
On the contrary, Dawkins is apparently ignorant of the F1 ATPase motor, 11 direct observations of the rotation of which were published in Nature in 1997; that same year, several scientists shared the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for this discovery. Also, the bacterial flagellum motor is 100% efficient at cruising speed. 12 Such errors hardly inspire confidence.
It’s notable that Dawkins says he recommends Miller’s book to Christians—showing clearly how he treats theistic evolutionists as ‘useful idiots’ who undermine their own faith.
In fact, his insinuation of a ‘god of the gaps’ mentality grossly misrepresents the argument for irreducible complexity. Far from being an intellectual cop-out (‘we can’t imagine how this complexity was produced so God must have done it’), design is the only credible scientific explanation for certain data based on what we do know—it is precisely for this reason that non-theists and agnostics have joined the ID movement.
However, no matter how powerfully a case can be made for irreducible complexity, Dawkins will then appeal to his final ‘clincher’ argument:
‘…the designer himself (/herself/itself) immediately raises the bigger problem of his own origin. …Far from terminating the vicious regress, God aggravates it with a vengeance.’ (p. 120)
Aside from the fallacy pointed out already, Christian philosopher Alvin Plantinga has pointed out that his argument also begs the question by presupposing materialism. In other words, it presupposes that God is composed of the same sort of matter/energy as the universe, and subject to the same laws. Such an approach a priori rules out the notion that God is spirit, is the uncaused First Cause, is eternal, etc. It thus seeks to discredit God’s own claims about Himself without engaging them on their own terms, ruling them inadmissible by default.