hooberus

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Posts by hooberus

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  291

  Evolution is a Fact #1 - Protein Functional Redundancy

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i intend for this to be one of a series of bite-sized ops on the evidence for evolution.. introduction to dna genes are sequences of dna made up of words (codons) each of which are three letters (bases) long.

  there are only four letters in the genetic alphabet (acg&t) each word or codon is the recipe for one amino acid.

  there are 20 different amino acids in living organisms.

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  hooberus

  In 1985 an Australian molecular biologist wrote a book titled “Evolution A Theory In Crisis”. This book gives a well laid out explanation of life’s overall pattern of “groups within groups” (a pattern of theme and variation) according to shared characteristics. This is found in chapters 5 and 6.

  He points out the difficulties of the specific evolutionary scenario of descent with modification from common ancestry of explaining life’s pattern.

  He also documents in a later chapter how the pattern of Cytochrome C matches the predictions of the pre-Darwinian typological model of nature almost perfectly (of groups within groups with each group Isolated and equidistant when compared with other groups).

  So regardless of evolution the predictions match another model almost precisely. So why could a creator have not done this? Especially since he would have already have created according to the same model?
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  291

  Evolution is a Fact #1 - Protein Functional Redundancy

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i intend for this to be one of a series of bite-sized ops on the evidence for evolution.. introduction to dna genes are sequences of dna made up of words (codons) each of which are three letters (bases) long.

  there are only four letters in the genetic alphabet (acg&t) each word or codon is the recipe for one amino acid.

  there are 20 different amino acids in living organisms.

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  2. 
  3. 
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  hooberus

  I will take more than one post to respond to the above 2 posts. I won’t consider responding to anything “new” until I’m done.

  General:

  The style of argumentation is similar to what other evolutionists use (see ReMine 1993) and can be broken down to two basic assertions of evolutionists.

  1. The assertion by evolutionists that a creator would not have created life the way that it exists.

  2. The assertion by evolutionists that evolution makes specific predictions about life, and that these predictions are fulfilled.

  The assertion by evolutionists that a creator would not have created life the way that it exists, is a convienent assertion. Cofty’s argument assumes that a creator could not (or at least would not) have created Cytochrome C in the pattern that it exists in. (Instead, according to him a creator would have been limited to creating it totally identically or totally random.)

  Thats several assertions about a creator with little or no substantiation.

  We are told by evolutionists that “just because we can’t imagine out how evolution did it doesn’t mean that a creator did it” - Perhaps evolutionists should consider that “just because we can’t imagine why a creator would do something in a certain way doesn’t mean that evolution did it”
• 
  291

  Evolution is a Fact #1 - Protein Functional Redundancy

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i intend for this to be one of a series of bite-sized ops on the evidence for evolution.. introduction to dna genes are sequences of dna made up of words (codons) each of which are three letters (bases) long.

  there are only four letters in the genetic alphabet (acg&t) each word or codon is the recipe for one amino acid.

  there are 20 different amino acids in living organisms.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  Even taking the existence of Cytochrome C as a given, that evolutionary processes “predict” life’s pattern is a stretch.

  Evolutionary theory is highly flexible. Evolutionists “adapt” evolution to try to fit any data.

  If Cytochrome C sequences (beyond a limited number of shared amino acids required to form the protein) were totally random between species, then Evolutionists would ‘explain’ the random pattern as a result of ‘neutral mutation’. After all they believe that ‘random’ mutation is the source of genetic variation. (They would tell us that a creator would not have done it this way and that it is evidence of random naturalistic processes instead).
• 
  291

  Evolution is a Fact #1 - Protein Functional Redundancy

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i intend for this to be one of a series of bite-sized ops on the evidence for evolution.. introduction to dna genes are sequences of dna made up of words (codons) each of which are three letters (bases) long.

  there are only four letters in the genetic alphabet (acg&t) each word or codon is the recipe for one amino acid.

  there are 20 different amino acids in living organisms.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  Cofty, you claim that the pattern of sequence variation in Cytochrome C between species is “exactly the way evolution predicts”.

  My point regarding the mathematical problem is that if purely naturalistic evolutionary processes cannot likely produce a Cytochrome C molecule, then they cannot therefore predict any pattern of Cytochrome C sequence variation.
• 
  291

  Evolution is a Fact #1 - Protein Functional Redundancy

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i intend for this to be one of a series of bite-sized ops on the evidence for evolution.. introduction to dna genes are sequences of dna made up of words (codons) each of which are three letters (bases) long.

  there are only four letters in the genetic alphabet (acg&t) each word or codon is the recipe for one amino acid.

  there are 20 different amino acids in living organisms.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  From the OP, 'The number of possible amino acid sequences that would result in a functional Cytochrome C protein molecule has been calculated to be a billion times larger than all the atoms in the known universe'

  Yes, but the number of possible sequences of the same length that would NOT result in a functional Cytochrome C protein molecule is trillions of times larger than this number. Yockey calculated both numbers.

  Evolutionists focus on one and ignore the other far LARGER number.

  So much larger that has any evolutionist shown that it’s likely?

  If you actually want to understand more about the evolution of the electron transport chain, read 'The Vital Question' by Nick Lane. It answers your question very specifically.

  Did he deal with the mathematical problem of obtaining a functional Cytochrome C molecule that Yockey alluded to?
  
  
  
  
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  11

  Evolution is a Fact #39 - Homologous Structures

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  every living thing descended from a common ancestor over millions of years.

  this is the central fact that the theory of evolution explains.

  house sparrows and tree sparrows only need to go back relatively few generations to find their common ancestor, while trout and tigers must search much closer to the roots of the tree for theirs.. darwin sketched this idea of common ancestry along with the words "i think" in one of his notebooks.

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  hooberus

  “Absolutely EVERYTHING we know about biology is predicated on evolution.”

  Evolutionists like to make statements to that effect. But dogmatic statements aren’t evidence.
• 
  11

  Evolution is a Fact #39 - Homologous Structures

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  every living thing descended from a common ancestor over millions of years.

  this is the central fact that the theory of evolution explains.

  house sparrows and tree sparrows only need to go back relatively few generations to find their common ancestor, while trout and tigers must search much closer to the roots of the tree for theirs.. darwin sketched this idea of common ancestry along with the words "i think" in one of his notebooks.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  Hooby - I really wish you would try to learn the basics of biology before you attempt to demolish it.

  Nothing in what I written attempts to demolish “biology”.

  
  
• 
  11

  Evolution is a Fact #39 - Homologous Structures

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  every living thing descended from a common ancestor over millions of years.

  this is the central fact that the theory of evolution explains.

  house sparrows and tree sparrows only need to go back relatively few generations to find their common ancestor, while trout and tigers must search much closer to the roots of the tree for theirs.. darwin sketched this idea of common ancestry along with the words "i think" in one of his notebooks.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  All 3 creatures have hands and fingers (or the remnants of them). All 3 have very different wing structures. Surely one way of creating a wing is superior to all others. So why would a creator create three completely different ways? Further, why would a creator use the fundamental bone structure of a hand, each time? Evolution provides an obvious explanation for each of these questions.

  The book “The Biotic Message” deals with these points.

  http://saintpaulscience.com/contents.htm
  

  The author argues that:

  1. Life was created to show that it is the result of a single designer. Hence, “The similarity of these three organisms cannot be denied. They are variations on a theme, possessing a common body plan. This sends the unifying message.”

  2. Life was designed to resist all other explanations. Hence, the organisms are “systematically placed (regarding all other organisms) so their common possession of wings cannot be explained by common descent.” “Evolutionists are left to account for the evolution of wings (and flight!) separately for each case.”

  Biotic Message p. 354
• 
  291

  Evolution is a Fact #1 - Protein Functional Redundancy

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i intend for this to be one of a series of bite-sized ops on the evidence for evolution.. introduction to dna genes are sequences of dna made up of words (codons) each of which are three letters (bases) long.

  there are only four letters in the genetic alphabet (acg&t) each word or codon is the recipe for one amino acid.

  there are 20 different amino acids in living organisms.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  The answer to your question is that natural selection is NOT random. But we have covered that many many times.

  How does differential survival and reproduction, even if not random, solve the mathematical problem of finding even one functional cytochrome c molecule?

  You claim “in the case of finding an explanation for the complexity and diversity of life the results are already in. Unguided evolution is a fact.”

  So therefore how was one of the functional sequences obtained given the probability issue?

  Cytochrome c is just one component of the electron transport chain, so why would a molecule of it be worth anything to be selected ?

  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_transport_chain
  
• 
  291

  Evolution is a Fact #1 - Protein Functional Redundancy

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i intend for this to be one of a series of bite-sized ops on the evidence for evolution.. introduction to dna genes are sequences of dna made up of words (codons) each of which are three letters (bases) long.

  there are only four letters in the genetic alphabet (acg&t) each word or codon is the recipe for one amino acid.

  there are 20 different amino acids in living organisms.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hooberus

  For those who wanted sources:
  What Cofty said:
  "The number of possible amino acid sequences that would result in a functional Cytochrome C protein molecule has been calculated to be a billion times larger than all the atoms in the known universe."
  The source:
  Yockey, H. P. (1992) Information Theory and Molecular Biology. New York, Cambridge University Press.

  The above is from page 16 of this thread.

  The number of different possible functional versions of cyctochrome c sequences calculted by Yockey is staggering (2.3 x 10 93 ).

  However, Yockeys calculations also show that when compared to the number of random possible sequences of the same length as cyctochrome c (110 amino acid length = 1.15 x 10 137 possible sequences) that functional cyctochrome c sequences are exceedingly rare.

  The odds of obtaining even one of these by chance is 2.0 x 10 -44
  

  Has any evolutionist demonstrated enough likely trials and time available on the Earth to likely obtain one functional cytochrome c sequence?